Why is modelling 7mm so difficult?

[bbishop]

'Nut,

 

Try Andy at Kent Garden Railways. It's a train to St Mary Cray. I asked him today and he always has flexible track and a brace of the left and right turnouts.

 

Bill

[cromptonnut]

Hi Bill, I've moved - I'm in Horley now.  From here it's probably easier for me to get to Gaugemaster.

[jcm@gwr]

What is the name of the shop?

It's 'K.S. Models'

Middle Row, Old Town, Stevenage.

The only problem is, he only opens Thurs>Sat.

Jeff

 

PS He might not be there much longer, as he has

turned 70 (hence reduced opening times).

I believe he is hoping someone will buy the business

as a going concern (we are keeping our fingers

crossed, oh to win the lottery)

[Guest Isambarduk]

“... is that because of the past, where if you didn't build everything from cardboard and biscuit tins, it was that or the crude Hornby tinplate stuff?”

 

Now that is a long way in the past: depression/war/austerity years when there was little about, and what was available was unaffordable to many, so it was make what you can from what you’ve got, or do without.  (And I have seen some pretty ropey 4mm models that look as if they should have been from that era.)

 

Life is very different today but, as has already been said, 7mm is still a minority scale: I seem to remember a trader saying the he sold about 20 times more 4mm than 7mm and, if Warley is anything to go by, it could be far greater than that.  Also, it’s not just 7mm (or 4mm) that we buy mail order/on-line – in fact, I cannot remember when I last went it to a shop to buy something, other than comestibles and the like.  Living in a rural area doesn’t help as we have no shop at all now so shopping on-line has become the norm for most essential purchases so it’s natural that non-essentials arrive the same way.  I am sure that I am not atypical of 7mm scale modellers. 

 

That said, as I help out on a stand, I do attend the Kettering/Cleckheaton (formerly Halifax)/Telford G0G shows so I pick up most of what I need there but I will have pre-ordered any larger items by email; this system works well for me but I realise that I am being a bit unpatriotic by not supporting my local model shop, none of which within 25 miles offers railway models in any scale!
 
David

[cromptonnut]

Being "South of the River" sadly none of the Guild shows are really 'convenient' for me - but whilst I can understand waiting until a big show to pick up either a big value item or a specialist thing direct from a small supplier, I'd be more than happy to support my local model shop if only they'd stock what I need, and as I said in my original post, Peco isn't an obscure brand and flexitrack isn't particularly unusual.

[Guest Isambarduk]

" flexitrack isn't particularly unusual."

 

 

But in 7mm it is - just ask a model shop.  Ah, I see that you did and found that out!

 

I wasn't always able to go to shows - I lived in the USA for quite a while, long before the internet and phoning internationally still involved the operator.  You just have to plan ahead and then use mail order.  It's very easy today so I think it's almost impossible for a model shop to compete commercially but if the owner is into 7mm you might be lucky but then that part of the business would most probably not be 'washing its face'.

 

David

[David Siddall]

Would I have even attempted 7-mil without the opportunity to buy on-line? I doubt it! I'd be happy to actually 'have' a local model shop! It's a 50-odd mile round trip to my nearest with even a modest stock!

 

However thanks to the Internet and e-commerce everyone from the largest discount retailers to small specialist traders and private sellers can (and do) sell direct and I can now get hold of the most awesome variety of stuff usually within a day or so of ordering with the carriage charges as like as not being a fraction of the cost involved in a trip to collect! Even that long-lost epitome of a traditional 'railway modelers' model shop Max Williams of Bristol couldn't keep everything in stock – 20+ years ago I remember Max having to order some Romford wheels for me which, if I remember correctly, weren't available to collect until a couple of weeks later.

 

So maybe we just ought to start admitting to ourselves that ...we've never actually had it so good?

 

David

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

You're right of course David. I think this whole thread really came about because Crompton was exasperated at not being able to play trains over the weekend, I don't think he really meant it.

 

We do have it good, but I've just got half an eye on Messrs Andrews and Finney who occasionally make 'retirement' noises, I could do without their ranges coming off the market before I feel ready to tackle something from them.

 

Other than that, there seem to be more and more options all the time.

[Guest Jim Read]

Hello all,

 

I've never been able to afford any of the stuff mentioned above, so I tried scratchbuiding and failed in 2mm, 3mm and 4mm.

I then tried 7mm the first thing I made in about 1982 was this;

 

The chassis is directly drilled brass with a hand drill and is a right codge up the body is Plastikard and I had to start again with the boiler and the saddle tank. It runs better now than when I made it.

 

 

I can't find a pic of the first wagon I made a CM&DP Lt Rly one but this was probably about the third, from card and paper;

 

I made every mistake there is but each time I learned something and of course I make my own track using card sleepers, my points from copperclad strips and my own superb controllers.

 

7mm is at the same time the most expensive and because of the cost the most frustrating or the least expensive and most rewarding if you make as much as you can yourself.

 

Anyone who thinks they haven't got the talent to scratchbuild is mistaken the best way into it is to put the prevarication on one side set to, make a start and just 'do' it; "Them as never made a ###### (edit begins with b and ends with s) up never made anything" the immense satisfaction is worth all the time and trouble.

 

Cheers - Jim

[PatB]

I'm not sure that the "cardboard and biscuit tin" days were as long ago as all that.  I'm currently working my way through a pile of Model Railways and Model Railway Constructors from the 1970s (obtained free/cheap at the local annual exhibition) and I'm staggered to be reminded of how crude some of the featureworthy 7mm stuff is even at that relatively late date, even though I was there at the time.  It's also noteworthy that there was still featured some very fine scratchbuilding from scrap around clockwork mechanisms.

 

Apart from a very few builders, true "fine scale"  in 0 gauge is a very recent (maybe since the late 80s) phenomenon.  Something I find quite comforting as I compare my rather wobbly efforts to the fine, photorealistic standards of modelling that seems to have become nearer the accepted norm in the scale.

[Poggy1165]

Mr Andrews has just, unfortunately, deleted a huge chunk of his range and also the option to buy kits in nickel silver.

 

Quite a few of the 'key' traders have gone past 60, and it's an open question how long they will wish/be able to continue, and whether anyone will be willing to take on their ranges. The 7mm world is very dependent on individuals, as opposed to corporate entities - which is both a 'good' and a 'bad' thing. It's nice to be able to ring up the controlling genius in person, but there's always that consciousness that if they retire or drop off the twig, all that they produce could be lost to us. I try to buy as much as I can, while I can, because it just might not be there next Thursday.

 

 

We do have it good, but I've just got half an eye on Messrs Andrews and Finney who occasionally make 'retirement' noises, I could do without their ranges coming off the market before I feel ready to tackle something from them.

 

 

 

[PatB]

Whilst the disappearance of any major 7 mm supplier would be a significant blow to a large proportion of people working in the scale, I think we can be confident that the scale as a whole will survive and that other suppliers will emerge to fill the gap to a greater or lesser extent.  Something that perhaps wasn't as certain back in, say, the late 60s/early 70s when it really did look like it would be the end when the last few Bassett-Lowke locos wore out and the remaining few yards of Bonds rail rusted to nothing.

 

It's worth noting that when I originally joined the G0G in 1975 (as a very junior member) my membership number was 2791.  Rejoining six months ago after a lengthy absence my new number isn't so far off ten times that.  Things have come a long way.

 

That said, I can't think of a single current 7 mm range of rtr or kits from which I don't want at least one item, so I hope everybody keeps plugging away at least until I win the lottery .

[djparkins]

Whilst the disappearance of any major 7 mm supplier would be a significant blow to a large proportion of people working in the scale, I think we can be confident that the scale as a whole will survive and that other suppliers will emerge to fill the gap to a greater or lesser extent.  Something that perhaps wasn't as certain back in, say, the late 60s/early 70s when it really did look like it would be the end when the last few Bassett-Lowke locos wore out and the remaining few yards of Bonds rail rusted to nothing.

 

It's worth noting that when I originally joined the G0G in 1975 (as a very junior member) my membership number was 2791.  Rejoining six months ago after a lengthy absence my new number isn't so far off ten times that.  Things have come a long way.

 

That said, I can't think of a single current 7 mm range of rtr or kits from which I don't want at least one item, so I hope everybody keeps plugging away at least until I win the lottery .

 

 

Yes I see your point but Poggy1165's post was really about kit manufacturers.

 

The question surely is - are there the younger people coming through who would have energy and enthusiasm + the skills both engineering-wise and business-wise and who would be willing to take the financial risk of developing a new range of kits, given the growth of RTR in 7mm and also the average age of most 7mm modellers.  I stand to be corrected but I believe that the average age of Guage O Guild members is over 60.

 

Even if a potential manufacturer simply purchased a current range from one of those coming up for retirement, the question then arising is would they ever get their money back?

 

My advice is get it whilst its hot - but then as a manufacturer I would say that!  Most producers I'm aware of are semi-retired and are not actively increasing their ranges.  We all wind down with age and whilst I am still actively increasing my own range, I am coming up to 60 next month [cards & presents of your unmade kits gratefully accepted!], so one has to be realistic that things cannot go on forever!

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins,

Modern Motive Power,

www.djparkins.com

[PatB]

Yes I see your point but Poggy1165's post was really about kit manufacturers.

 

The question surely is - are there the younger people coming through who would have energy and enthusiasm + the skills both engineering-wise and business-wise and who would be willing to take the financial risk of developing a new range of kits, given the growth of RTR in 7mm and also the average age of most 7mm modellers.  I stand to be corrected but I believe that the average age of Guage O Guild members is over 60.

 

Even if a potential manufacturer simply purchased a current range from one of those coming up for retirement, the question then arising is would they ever get their money back?

 

My advice is get it whilst its hot - but then as a manufacturer I would say that!  Most producers I'm aware of are semi-retired and are not actively increasing their ranges.  We all wind down with age and whilst I am still actively increasing my own range, I am coming up to 60 next month [cards & presents of your unmade kits gratefully accepted!], so one has to be realistic that things cannot go on forever!

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins,

Modern Motive Power,

www.djparkins.com

 

I get what you're saying but I'm not convinced that there is any less up and coming drive and talent than there ever was and I'm also not convinced that the average age of 7 mm modellers as a whole has increased all that much in the last 30 years, based on my memory of the early days of the Somerset 0 Gauge Group.  I just found some of my old photos of group meetings in 1981-82 and grey heads seem to have been as prevalent then as they would be now.

 

I'm also not sure whether the growth in rtr will spell the end of kits.  It hasn't yet in 4 mm and 0 is, I think, still sufficiently niche that many current workers in the scale are even less likely than the 4 mm enthusiasts to be fully satisfied with even a much larger rtr range than is realsitically likely.

 

Something else to bear in mind, as you'll be well aware, is that the huge advances in the technology available to the prospective manufacturer and, perhaps most importantly, its dramatic fall in cost has, if anything, lowered the barriers to entry at a cottage industry level.

 

I'm not complacent by any means but I am optimistic about the future of the scale.  I may also be completely wrong, given that you're in a vastly better position to assess the 7 mm market than I am .

[Poggy1165]

I think the serious answer to the original question is 'because you are now part of a minority.' Minorities are always at a disadvantage, and the choice is either to embrace the positives of the situation or grow bitter about it. Having said that, I didn't go into 7mm scale because I thought it would be easy, I went into it because it gave me more satisfaction than 4mm. (And if I had stayed in 4mm, I'd have been part of another minority, either EM or P4.)

 

Procuring stuff for 7mm scale can be frustrating at time, but there's a great range out there. It just takes a while how to figure to get your mitts on it. IMHO, the increased hassle is well worth it in the end.

[woodyfox]

With due regard to the original poster, I believe this is less about the desire of local model shops to stock 7mm products, and more to do with an expection that 7mm should be like oo gauge. In the former it's protagonists are used to obtaining what they want when they want it an it fits in well with today's 'I need it yesterday' mentality. I believe 7mm is a more traditional approach that involves research, skill building and above all, patience.

[cromptonnut]

With due regard to the original poster, I believe this is less about the desire of local model shops to stock 7mm products, and more to do with an expection that 7mm should be like oo gauge. In the former it's protagonists are used to obtaining what they want when they want it an it fits in well with today's 'I need it yesterday' mentality. I believe 7mm is a more traditional approach that involves research, skill building and above all, patience.

 

Perhaps but that's all then part of the "cardboard and biscuit tins" mentality.  As 7mm becomes more accessible to "the average modeller" with reasonably straightforward kits and an expanding range of rtr available that is also available to those on a reasonable budget, then it only makes sense that the demand for everyday stuff like Peco track in 7mm is going to expand.  A box of Peco flexitrack tied up as "unsold stock" is probably the same price, or less, than the average Hornby or Bachmann loco that's also sitting on the shelf.  I'm sure every shop has things that they bought in the expectation of selling it but hasn't.

 

The historical approach to 7mm may well have been "make it all yourself" using a small toolroom in a shed, but those days are rapidly disappearing with the introduction of Heljan, Dapol and Ixion's rtr range.  Now there's another option, which local shops can embrace, or leave me to take my business to Hattons or similar.  As I explained, I'm not expecting shops to stock everything, that'd just be impractical, and of course things like the Guild shows are the better place to get hold of the more specialist stuff.

 

It's interesting because I've come across quite a lot of resistance on the Guild website about people like me, who have a new approach to things 7mm.  I may be in the minority now but in 5 years time I don't think I will be.  The problems of cost and availability are being overcome, and the only problem of 7mm modelling left is the amount of room it takes up. That I don't know how to fix.

[Poggy1165]

It may be that if 7mm RTR continues to expand and if it continues to grow in popularity, there may eventually be an business opportunity for a specialist retailer or two. But the said businesspersons will need either very deep pockets or a very obliging bank manager.

 

Space will always be a problem (unless you are the Duke of Devonshire or similar) but on this very website there are some splendid examples of what can be done in a pretty small space. I dare say a group of like-minded folk could acquire a clubroom big enough to run class 40s with ten Mk2 coaches, or whatever. It's just a matter of getting such a group together, and in theory it should be easier to do this as those with these inclinations grow in number over the next X years.

 

If some of the more 'traditional modellers' feel threatened by the growth in RTR, I have to say I don't. I welcome it, although at the moment it's practically a separate hobby, rather like those who collect tinplate or model continental railways. But you see, it's hardly likely that the RTR lot will produce anything I would find useful, like a J12 or a rake of MS&L four-wheeled coaches, so you'll understand why I'm not as enthusiastic about it as those modelling later eras are.

[PatB]

 the only problem of 7mm modelling left is the amount of room it takes up. That I don't know how to fix.

 

Time to go back out into the garden methinks (for those who have one).  Although, these days, garden railways seem to be largely the preserve of large scale narrow gauge, standard gauge 0 was once relatively commonplace.  Yes, some was pretty coarse scale but, on the other hand, there were folk like Don Neale who modelled to standards at least as fine, and possibly finer, as those prevalent in indoor 0 at the time.  The only example I've seen in the recentish model press, though, has been Wallsea.  Given that people have been making 00 work out of doors for 50 years now and that, if anything, all weather 2-rail operation is becoming easier with DCC (full track voltage at all times to burn through corrosion) I see no reason why a reasonable main line to, say, G0G fine track standards would not be an entirely practical proposition in a fairly modest suburban garden.

 

I don't think I'd put a detailed model of a station outside and I'd be cautious about delicate or complex pointwork but an indoor terminus or through station with outdoor loops of Peco, either at pseudo ground level or on presentable baseboards against a tidy, greenish background strikes me as being eminently possible and would allow one to see trains of plausible length running on unencumbered main line.

 

Of course, given this, or any other, solution to the space problem, one then has to pay for and/or build the trains to fill it .

[ZiderHead]

Theres plenty of O gauge garden railways in the UK of all sizes and eras and more being built, hit up youtube for some great examples.

 

Lots of talk about Peco O guage flextrack here but no mention of C&L flextrack, which is available in HiNi NS or steel and is also suitable for outdoor use. Looks better than Peco to me, plus every length you buy supports a smaller UK supplier (who hasnt spent decades studiously ignoring the needs of UK prototype modellers ...)

[Stringfingerling]

When I was modelling in 4mm I found it  difficult then to get the bits I wanted from local shops; nobody seemed to stock the specialist bits I wanted, so I built up a list of good suppliers such as Mainly Trains and Eileen's Emporium .  Switching to 7mm I've got most of the bits I need from C&L and Tower Models; yes, it is comparatively expensive, but you don't really need so much of it to feel satisfied!  In respect of putting it together , I've found it easier than 4mm scale.  Tolerances seem less critical and everything just seems to work in spite of my eyesight having gone downhill.  The technical support is all on this site, with some amazing experts happy to advise.

[cromptonnut]

Time to go back out into the garden methinks (for those who have one).  

 

3rd floor flat.  My "garden" is thus, full of herbs... possibly fit a T scale end-to-end in it I guess?

 

[PatB]

3rd floor flat.  My "garden" is thus, full of herbs... possibly fit a T scale end-to-end in it I guess?

 

 

I do sympathise.  Maybe build a BLT on a plank that you can hang out of the window .

[switcher 1]

3rd floor flat.  My "garden" is thus, full of herbs... possibly fit a T scale end-to-end in it I guess?

 

 

I see an unused window ledge there........