Along the Chapeltown loop

[Rivercider]

Thanks for taking the time to take the photographs, and explain the operation, fascinating!

 

Good luck with the new layout,

 

cheers

[bescotbeast]

Once again thanks for the update and for the inspiration to create a "working" model railway.

I've created my own variant on the Car cards theme, opting for a centralised "yard masters board" bringing together all the locations on one view-able board

9 board updated by bescotbeast, on Flickr

1 inbound wagon cards by bescotbeast, on Flickr

I opted for this system as the board and cards were generously donated to me by a friend who works for NR and they were surplus to requirements after an office move so wanting to give them a good home and use them at the same time I devised my system pictured above, which in turn was spurred on by your informative pictures in this thread.

                     Regards

                                          Simon

Edited December 8, 2013 by bescotbeast

[john flann]

Now that's what I regard as a "real" railway.

 

Excellent.

 

Operating with real purpose.

 

Great shame it had to be dismantled.

[chesterfield]

any sign of operations commencing once again?

[northolland]

Thank you Chesterfield for showing an interest.

 

There have been a few developments but operations have not commenced as such. The previous layout was dismantled and the house move has taken place. There is a new railway room. I am in the process of building a fiddle yard / storage yard that can hold many more trains than the previous layout. One requirement is that it can dispatch any train in all directions. Apart from operating a model railway in the way that is descried above, I also enjoy just switching it on an watch the trains come by for an hour or so, and not having to bother with all the movements that the time table tells me to do. The previous layout was not capable of doing that.

 

In the process, I am gathering experiences with new techniques and new products. I am not sure what the rest of the layout will look like. Will it be a new Chapeltown Loop or will it be something else? I am not sure yet.

[chesterfield]

Glad to hear all of that. Chapeltown Loop is the closest I have seen to US operating practice (read universal practice- quite a lot of layouts here use it)

Have you seen the car orders without numbers site? quite interesting concept- a supply a wagon on demand system.

Cheers

[northolland]

I don't know about this 'orders without numbers' site. A quick google search did not show it. I am intrigued. Could you point me in its direction?

 

You are right about being inspired by US practice for the design. I like the way in which this gives a layout purpose and play value.

[HillsideDepot]

I haven't read it yet, but I think it is this http://www.phillynmra.org/wp-content/uploads/Car-Orders-without-Numbers.pdf 

[Kiwi_Ed]

Glad somebody bit the bullet in re-awakening this topic.. My fingers have been itching for typing a reply and asking how/if a new layout was progressing! Very happy to hear that you are working on a layout again, northolland!

 

This topic has been by far the best I have ever read (anywhere!) on operations. The way in which you semi-randomly split your waybills up in work days is really cool and this with all the different trips makes operation really fun without it becoming too much of game instead of a representation of prototypical operations.

 

This 'orders without numbers' system looks interesting as well - saves a lot of hassle of making car cards. I'll have a good read through the PDF!

 

I am looking forward on seeing more progress on the new layout and very curious how it will be operated upon.

[Kiwi_Ed]

Reading through the PDF I came across the first problem with this system:

 

What is you have a train full of standard vans destined for several 'spots'? There is no way of telling which van goes where..
Obviously you could get around this by keeping the Car Order Cards in a certain order (don't drop the pile!) and pretend that the cars are in the same order, but to me it feels more natural to actually know which wagon to pick from the train to place in its spot..

 

Continuing on from this problem: What about cars that are placed 'off spot'? If there is a siding with several wagons on it that are waiting to be placed in their right spot it is also quite difficult to remember which wagon is suppose to go where.

 

Besides this I don't really like the way cars are picked up again.. There is no random factor to this: you simply decide if a delivered car will be picked up during the next session or not.

Obviously you could easily make this a bit more random by using a dice (even numbers = pick up, uneven = hold). Even so I like northolland's system where there is just a pile of outgoing loads for that specific day and you just have to find the wagons for it better.

 

The biggest downside is that you need to keep your cards in order with the order of the wagons in a train or on a siding.

If the pile of cards get mixed up there is no way to tell what load is in which wagon and what goes where.
Does this matter for the 'play factor'?

I suppose not, but I would like to pretend that my train is real and hate to think what would happen if a van full of meat get mixed up with a van full of paper for the local printer - I don't think they are going to be too pleased when they open the doors after the wagon has been stored in the yard for two days...

 

All in all I am undecided.. The system is simple to implement and easily expended when there are more locations added to a layout.
On the other hand I think it is more fun to actually follow a particular wagon around the layout and let the waybills decide where it goes instead of just picking any random suitable wagon for the load. Well, actually, that's what you're doing with card cards as well!
I suppose it could be worth giving this system a go. The system easily allows to add car cards later on if it doesn't suffice so nothing is lost by starting off without them.

[northolland]

I think Kiwi_Ed hit the nail on the head. With this system it would be difficult to keep track of which load is in which wagon, even if you are careful with keeping the stack that you are dealing with in a particular order that reflects the order of the wagons in your siding or train. Remembering from when I did my shunting on the Chapeltown Loop, I was moving wagons about, not loads. Having a car card for each wagon meant that I knew what was what and where wagons needed to go. Because each car card had a pocket in which the destination card or waybill was a snug fit, I never had issues with loosing loads from cars. It effectively worked as a 'one-card' system when I was operating. Only between operating sessions, the waybills were separated from the car cards, to set it all up for the next session. I have a suspicion that the 'orders without numbers' system was designed as an alternative to a system with a lot more paperwork. I have seen that some US layouts not only have car cards and waybills, but also switch lists and train orders and operators filling out forms while they are shunting (switching!) wagons (cars!) about.

 

I am pleasantly surprised that there are some people out there who are interested in the sequel to the Chapeltown Loop. A I said, there has been some activity, especially with regard to the following subjects:

- The design of the staging yard

- The software and hardware to use to operate the layout

Both subjects are coming to a conclusion while I am experimenting with alternatives. I am happy to explain about my trials and tribulations.

 

What I am still undecided about is what the visible part of the layout will look like. I am toying around with various ideas. Again, I am happy to explain about my thought processes here.

 

I would really appreciate it if people would offer me their opinions on what I am trying to achieve, help me move forward, or share their experience with me. What I know I do want is to have a layout that offers me the same 'play value' as the Chapeltown Loop, based on prototype practice, operating flawlessly, and looking good (at least to my eyes).

[Kiwi_Ed]

Please do explain your trials, tribulation and thought process. Along the Chapeltown Loop has been such an inspiration and looked great in its unfinished state - it would only have gotten better if you had the time to finish it. Anything you want to share about your current project can only be just as inspiring!

[chesterfield]

First comment

Do you really NEED to know what is inside your van?

Surely you are delivering (in the first place) a wagon to be loaded. Once it is loaded, it has to go on its way asap.

For example,Mr Shopkeeper in Hintock orders 100 boxes of biscuits from Huntly and Palmer( they eat a lot of biscuits in Hintock)

H&P need a van which they request from the local SM.(car order)He happens to have a suitable van in his yard which he arranges to be shunted to H&P. They load ( Car order in Hold- it takes a day to load) End of day car order card moved from Hold to Pickup. Next shunting trip away it goes away with its car order

 

Earle Hackett is a prolific writer and presenter on this subject. His treatment of open wagons ( he models operations, set in the edge of the Applachians area) uses Load cards instead of car order cards.

 

Taking a leaf out of John Flann's book , I could see that system being used for rakes of wagons  ie one Load card for the rake- eg a NCB coal mine rakes of 10 wagons which are kept in their rakes always.

 Glad someone is interested in operating using something that is close to real life.Keep the discussion going please

[Ray H]

Here's my take.

 

Knowing the precise content of a vehicle isn't necessary. It is the destination of the load that is the vital factor (unless there is a requirement to load more than one consignment into a wagon, in which case the weight/size of a load could be critical).

 

You need a reason to move a wagon from A to B in the first place. That is either because the wagon is being sent empty - to uplift a load elsewhere or because it is no longer needed at its current location - or it is being sent to where its load is destined.

 

I see the load cards as an alternative to the dice option where the wagon is sent to a (layout) destination according to the number on a dice. The load cards also avoid noting the destination of a wagon separately.

 

My understanding of John Flann's system is that each wagon (or set or wagons) always ply between the fiddle yard and a specific siding at Hintock. The load/wagon card combination provides a variance in which wagon moves the load and can also avoid the need to marshal the train in a specific order to keep tabs on which wagon goes where when the train stops intermediately. It also provides the added variance of what loads are dispatched on a given day.

 

n.b. "Wagon" includes any vehicle type.

[chesterfield]

Here's my take.

 

Knowing the precise content of a vehicle isn't necessary. It is the destination of the load that is the vital factor (unless there is a requirement to load more than one consignment into a wagon, in which case the weight/size of a load could be critical).

 

You need a reason to move a wagon from A to B in the first place. That is either because the wagon is being sent empty - to uplift a load elsewhere or because it is no longer needed at its current location - or it is being sent to where its load is destined.

 

I see the load cards as an alternative to the dice option where the wagon is sent to a (layout) destination according to the number on a dice. The load cards also avoid noting the destination of a wagon separately.

 

My understanding of John Flann's system is that each wagon (or set or wagons) always ply between the fiddle yard and a specific siding at Hintock. The load/wagon card combination provides a variance in which wagon moves the load and can also avoid the need to marshal the train in a specific order to keep tabs on which wagon goes where when the train stops intermediately. It also provides the added variance of what loads are dispatched on a given day.

 

n.b. "Wagon" includes any vehicle type.

We seem to be taking over Chapeltown loop - should we start a new thread?

[Ray H]

There is some relevance to this thread as that's where the OPs system is described.

 

However, I'm more than happy for it to be tacked onto my Model Freight Train Operation thread if that's felt to be the better option.

[john flann]

I've just found this thread again and I'm happy Hintock and my methods have been cited. I'm happier also that Chapelton Loop or something similar is being planned.

 

Being "my" system pf wagon management (with due acknowledgement to all who have gone before) what I commend about it is it's simplicity and random quality. It keeps me (a simple soul) happily engaged in goods workings along with the sequence style of operation.

 

I employ rakes of wagons for convenience, but I have singletons and these too introduce variety in train make-up and their shunting.

[northolland]

Just a quick note that I do not mind people discussing things when it is inspired by what is going on in the thread.

[northolland]

Here it goes. This is my first posting on the sequel to the Chapeltown Loop. I still have not decided yet whether I will re-build what I had, albeit with some modifications because it will have to fit in a differently sized room, or whether I will go for something different. What I do know is that whatever I will put together, it will have to provide me with the same play value, be based on prototypical operations, and look good.

 

What I would like to add is the possibility to just switch the layout on and to have trains passing through in random order on top of working my way through a timetable. This extra requirement means that all trains have to have there own dedicated track in the storage yard where they return, no matter whether they have just done a random run on the layout or whether they were called up because it was their time in the time table. Additionally, I would like every train to be able to run in both directions. I would also like to incorporate automatic engine changes, because this gives the illusion of having far more trains going round than I have tracks in the storage yard (and it provides me with an excuse to add to my engine collection). Finally, I want the storage yard to be as large as possible to be able to store far more trains than I could with Chapeltown Loop 1. The previous Chapeltown loop had just seven tracks and only two incorporated an automatic engine change facility. And when I say large, I would also like to increase train length with one coach. The maximum length for Chapeltown Loop 1 was five coaches. I would like to have the possibility to run six coach trains as well as goods trains of a similar length.

 

For a while, I toyed with the idea to put the storage yard under the visible part of the layout and to have trains coming up and going down through a helix. I did some sketches but quickly decided that the helix would take up so much room that any space gained by having a double deck layout is lost because of the helix taking a large chunk out of the total room space. To make the trains go comfortably up the helix, you need a rather large radius, and I ended up with a quarter of the room being occupied by the helix and struggling to find enough length in the room to accommodate the many storage tracks that I wanted. Besides, I was wary about including inclines, as I feared this would add all kinds of complications to the reliable running of the trains.

 

 

This is what I have ended up with. The diagram denotes what I currently have in place. It features 11 storage tracks, 8 of which will have automatic engine change facilities. There are 2 tracks that fit six coaches and two engines. There is room to add another 11 storage tracks in the space that says ‘Future South Sidings’ as a mirror image of the ‘North Sidings’. If you follow the routes in and out of the storage yard from where it says ‘Future connection to visible part’, you will see that you can reach every storage track in both directions. There are engine laybys in the corners to facilitate the engine changes. And there are two what I refer to as diagonals that allow complete trains or steam engines to be turned. This configuration fits the bill, with 22 storage tracks and with each train being able to go out and back in both directions, ending up where they started. There is even room to add short engine spurs in the space where it now says ‘North Sidings’ if my collection of engines grows.

Edited January 28, 2017 by northolland

[northolland]

Here are two pictures of the storage yard to supplement the diagram above.

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by northolland

[Ray H]

May I refer back to your method of moving wagons?

 

How easy do you find it to read individual wagon numbers off the wagons?

 

Aside from renumbering those wagons that I have multiples of to avoid duplication, the ability to read each wagon's number across the baseboard is the one thing that stops me following your idea.

[northolland]

I have found that in practice I don't read the numbers on the wagons very much. With the era that I am modelling, there are so many different wagons within a type that I can recognise them just from their appearance rather than having to look at their number. For instance, when I have a couple of vans standing in a siding, I can see that the first one is a 'southern', the next one is a 'standard with ply doors', then their is a 'fruit van', than another 'standard' but with different doors, with the next one being grey and therefore a non-braked 'southern, etc. Another way that I can distinguish between wagons is that I recognise whether I am looking at a Bachmann standard van or a Parkside standard van. There is even enough variety among mineral wagons that I have started to recognise them individually. There is more information on the cards than just the number. What also helps is that I put the cards in the holders in the order that they stand in a siding, and also when the wagons are in a train, I keep the cards in the same order as the wagons appear in the train. This too helps with matching up cards and wagons. And finally, cars gain individuality through weathering or by adding a load.

[Ray H]

Thanks.

 

That's useful to know.

 

I'll see how many similar wagons that I have and see whether I can apply the same technique.

[londonbus]

This has been a most useful read, and will require re-reading to fully absorb. I am looking at a way of adding some realism and interest to operations over and above just running a Working Timetable and the idea of cards is one i've seen on McRuss's layout. The laminator will be busy. 

 

Any helpful experience / Comments on making the pockets on the Car Cards for the Way Bills to fit in? 

 

Best of luck with the new layout. Look forward to seeing progress.

[Kiwi_Ed]

 

Any helpful experience / Comments on making the pockets on the Car Cards for the Way Bills to fit in? 

 

I was thinking of using card sleeves as pockets, you can get these at gaming (not the digital type..) shops or online.