orcadian Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Please does anyone know whether there were Summer Inter-regionals (regular or excursion) to and from the WR and the Kent Coast, especially west of Margate, during the 1950s? If there were, were any WR 4-6-0 classes permitted to operate East of London, or did they all have an engine change somewhere in W London? I was a frequent spotter at Gillingham in th late 1950s, and saw a very few Black 5s, but I can't remember seeing any 'copper tops' there! Thanks in advance for the excellent memoried return contributors! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2013 The trains via Reading/Wokingham usually changed engines at either Oxford or Reading (although some Western engines - 78XX & 43XX - were permitted as far as Redhill, via Guildford, of course). Without doing any timetable delving I don't think there were many booked inter-Regional passenger trains via Kensington at that time and they would have almost invariably changed engines at Kensington due to clearance problems with most Western outside cylinder engines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Although not from the WR, there were some trains to Ramsgate (eg ex Derby Friargate) that came down the Great Central. Would these have changed engines at, say, Neasden? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcadian Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 The trains via Reading/Wokingham usually changed engines at either Oxford or Reading (although some Western engines - 78XX & 43XX - were permitted as far as Redhill, via Guildford, of course). Without doing any timetable delving I don't think there were many booked inter-Regional passenger trains via Kensington at that time and they would have almost invariably changed engines at Kensington due to clearance problems with most Western outside cylinder engines. Thank you, Mike and 'Ddudders! I knew someone would have the knowledge! I had suspected clearance issues being the blocking factor. Ah well, more work for my 'Schools', 'Arthurs' and 'light Bulleids'! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcadian Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 Although not from the WR, there were some trains to Ramsgate (eg ex Derby Friargate) that came down the Great Central. Would these have changed engines at, say, Neasden? Thank you - these may well have been the source of the very occasional Black 5 'cops'. Around the time of Kent Coast Electrification, we also got a couple of Summer Saturday DMU trains of 8 - 10 coaches or thereabouts - very hard work to spot and list accurately as they appeared round the bend from Gillingham Station to the level crossing at 40 mph plus - especially as we didn't normally collect coach numbers in those days! But I have no plans to buy DMUs to replicate these trains! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 29, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2013 There are some trains shown in the Carriage Workings books in the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo Group. For example, in Summer 1954 via Reading there were 0737 SX Birkenhead/Wrexham to Ramsgate/Margate/Hastings (reverse working 0856 ex Ramsgate) 0737 SO Birkenhead/Wrexham to Ramsgate/Margate (reverse working 0856 ex Ramsgate) 0855 SO Margate to Birmingham 0910 SO Margate to Wolverhampton 1020 SO Birmingham to Margate Via Kensington there was 1010 SO Birmingham to Margate These trains were formed alternately of WR and SR allocated stock. In later years this often led to SR Green Mk1 stock turning up on Birmingham area local services on alternate weeks during the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 29, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2013 There are some trains shown in the Carriage Workings books in the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo Group. For example, in Summer 1954 via Reading there were 0737 SX Birkenhead/Wrexham to Ramsgate/Margate/Hastings (reverse working 0856 ex Ramsgate) 0737 SO Birkenhead/Wrexham to Ramsgate/Margate (reverse working 0856 ex Ramsgate) 0855 SO Margate to Birmingham 0910 SO Margate to Wolverhampton 1020 SO Birmingham to Margate Via Kensington there was 1010 SO Birmingham to Margate These trains were formed alternately of WR and SR allocated stock. In later years this often led to SR Green Mk1 stock turning up on Birmingham area local services on alternate weeks during the summer. The trains via Reading were then, as Mike, says, via Redhill, with portion splits as appropriate. Thus the Margate portion would run via Tonbridge and Canterbury West. I cannot confirm the power they would normally have had east of Reading in those days, but by the early '60s such trains were almost always SR-powered, often by a Schools. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Although not from the WR, there were some trains to Ramsgate (eg ex Derby Friargate) that came down the Great Central. Would these have changed engines at, say, Neasden? Memories of train-spotting on the 'island' at Old Oak Junction, one of the very few locations where you could regularly see locos from all 4 grouping origins. B1's would be seen running parallel to Central line underground trains between North Acton, and East Acton on inter-regional trains, to change loco at Kensington. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Richard Hardy has told an interesting story about WR to SR interregional trains, with a WR engine working on SR lines after Kensington. Definitely a one-off, though. At very short notice, due to problems with a bridge on the Reading-Redhill line, Stewarts Lane had to handle four re-routed trains coming off the WR through Kensington, two of them to Redhill, and two to Ramsgate. They could not come up with 4 engines at such short notice, and were also scrambling for crews - they could manage two 'N's with suitable crews for the Ramsgate trains, but had real problems with the Redhill ones. He made the judgment that clearances on the Kensington to Redhill route were probably better than on the regular Reading to Redhill line so, if the WR engines on the Redhill trains were of classes allowed Reading-Redhill, they could go forward with a Stewarts Lane driver conducting. He was told that both trains had 43xx class moguls (allowed Reading-Redhill), managed to find two drivers to conduct the WR crews, and was very pleased with himself. However, he had been misinformed - one of the Redhill trains had a Hall. The driver he'd sent to Kensington with instructions to conduct it to Redhill didn't know one WR engine from another, and happily took it on through Clapham Junction and Croydon to Redhill, where it was immediately impounded. (There was also a screwup involving the second train to go towards Redhill, which meant that the WR mogul was taken off, and a very hastily-prepared 'N' used instead.) Source - BRILL July 1997 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcadian Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Thanks again to all those who have kindly added to my vague memories of just over 50 years ago, and/or offered official factual information in this thread - just more proof of the kindness, co-operation and knowledge available with RM Web! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathedralstuart Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Can you please advise me if there were any Train Excursions from any GWR stations (late 40's-1950's) to travel on the Eastern section of the Southern Railway? I believe that there were inter regional excursions and i believe that coaches from the 'visitors' were utilised. However, were GWR Steam loco's used on occasions to take their coaches to their destination (such as Margate, Ramsgate, Hastings and other Kent holiday resorts? I am modelling (correctly or incorrectly) such a scenario on my railway layout. Stuart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcadian Posted April 6, 2014 Author Share Posted April 6, 2014 Can you please advise me if there were any Train Excursions from any GWR stations (late 40's-1950's) to travel on the Eastern section of the Southern Railway? I believe that there were inter regional excursions and i believe that coaches from the 'visitors' were utilised. However, were GWR Steam loco's used on occasions to take their coaches to their destination (such as Margate, Ramsgate, Hastings and other Kent holiday resorts? I am modelling (correctly or incorrectly) such a scenario on my railway layout. Stuart. Sorry, Stuart, but a glance through the posts in this thread confirms that very few GWR classes were permitted (Moguls only) and then only as far East and South as Redhill, generally via Reading and Guildford. It seems certain that clearances on the Chatham Lines didn't permit WR locos to be used. Ex-GWR coaching stock was permitted, but pulled by ex-SR locos. Slightly off-topic, 1960s and 1970's rail tours gave me at least one sighting of an A4 and a Deltic passing Rochester, if I remember correctly!! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathedralstuart Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Hello Richard, Thank you so much for your reply. Sorry to be a pain, but did (to your knowledge) the LMS and/or the LNER travel (with their respective locomotives) again hauling excursions on the eastern section of the SR in the late 40's and 50's? Regards, Stuart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcadian Posted April 6, 2014 Author Share Posted April 6, 2014 Hello Richard, Thank you so much for your reply. Sorry to be a pain, but did (to your knowledge) the LMS and/or the LNER travel (with their respective locomotives) again hauling excursions on the eastern section of the SR in the late 40's and 50's? Regards, Stuart. hi, Stuart! My Gillingham (Kent) spotting days started around 1956, and from then until 1960, I saw literally only about half a dozen Black 5's and have no recollection of any other LMS classes, and no Eastern classes on Kent Coast trains. But the Chatham lines were, if I recall correctly, more tightly restricted by the Civil Engineers (the tunnel between Rochester and Chatham comes to mind as being a particular problem) and it's possible that spotters on the Tonbridge/Ashford/Canterbury/Ramsgate route saw more 'foreigners' on the inter-regionals and coastal excursions. If no-one else comes back with more positive info, I'll have a look through some of my 'picture books' of trains in Kent! In the 1960's with the end of SR steam in Kent, when our 'home' diesels were only Class 24/0, Class 33 and Class 73, some other flavours appeared on inter-regionals, presumably with a Southern Region pilotman assisting in the cab, Hope this helps, or nudges other people's memories! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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