Lake Freemo module build thread

[Talltim]

Two reason for starting this thread;

A: Not to pollute the Freemo Extravaganza thread too much

B: More importantly to motivate me to actually get it built in time.

Wood will be ordered on Saturday so I should be able to start building next week. I'm pretty happy with my first plan.

A quick recap for those that haven't read the previous post.

 

Based on MX Tower on the meeting of the causeways on Lake Monona. 8' long on each axis.

 

 

However I have realised I need some advice on signalling. I have a fair idea how it would be signalled in the UK, but despite having read up a bit on US practise, I am still baffled. I'm looking for a pretty generic design in line with the Freemo idea. Obviously signals outside the area of the module aren't possible. Assuming that the US would still use stop signals to prevent conflicting moves across the diamond some of it can be interlocked with the switches,  but would there be route specific aspects? Would the signals just protect  the diamond, or would they before the switches?

The photo linked above shows a pretty fancy signal, with what I assume is a duplicate above for sighting from further away and a semaphore too. However the photo is from before the line bypassing the diamond was built.

 

[Northpoint]

Excellent, Tim. Look forward to seeing progress.

 

Afraid I can't help with the signalling - it's a mystery to me too.

[dave1905]

A several questions:

 

1. Is this supposed to be in block signal territory? In other words that for 50 miles on either side of this interlocking there is automatic blocks signals or CTC. The alternative is that the there are no block signals (commonly called "dark territory"). If its dark territory then the approach signal will always display approach and might be a sign rather than a lit signal (a signpost with a yellow blade at a 45 degr angle, like half of a yard limit sign). If it was dark, all you would have to do is go a couple feet onto the adjacent modules and place an approach sign and you could be 100% prototypical.

 

2. Are the connection switches part of the interlocking (manually controlled by the interlocking operator) or are they outside the interlocking? The interlocking limits are all the track and appurtenances between the home signals of the interlocking. If the switches are part of the interlocking, controlled by the operator, the home signals will be outboard of the points of the connection switches. If the switches are hand throw switches lined by the crews, the home signals will be inboard of the switches.

 

If you are outside a block signal system, then the main track signals for the interlocking would just have clear and stop as indications. If the connection was within the interlocking then, when lined for the connection they would probably get a low/slow/restricting signal (something that says proceed through the interlocking limits at restricted/low/slow speed. If the interlocking does not include the switches the home signals would have 1 head most likely, if the interlocking included the switches the home signals would have 2 heads most likely.

 

If the interlocking is part of a block signal system, then the options become much larger. The main line routes can have approach indications and depending on the speed of the connection. If it was rated for 30 mph or more the route through the connection could have some approach indications

[bxmoore]

On the Western Union crossover module, Lipson Junction, which has an additional chord also linking the top two tracks, we have a three-aspect signal protecting each route, default being a red light, and the switches and signals are DS-controlled. 

 

To proceed on a route through the diamond, it's green, and for the chord, it's yellow. We've found that, for modular ops, it's best to keep signals as simple as possible, so that people understand them. Making it more difficult (ie, more "prototypical") isn't necessarily a good idea. I agree that US signals are mind-bogglingly complicated for a lot of us, myself included.

 

At 1.28 on the video below, you'll see a train crossing at L J Junction with a green light, which will return to red. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsLgj6W87sgYb0zeZCajtWw

 

Brian

[Talltim]

A several questions:

 

1. Is this supposed to be in block signal territory? In other words that for 50 miles on either side of this interlocking there is automatic blocks signals or CTC. The alternative is that the there are no block signals (commonly called "dark territory"). If its dark territory then the approach signal will always display approach and might be a sign rather than a lit signal (a signpost with a yellow blade at a 45 degr angle, like half of a yard limit sign). If it was dark, all you would have to do is go a couple feet onto the adjacent modules and place an approach sign and you could be 100% prototypical.

  

The nature of the modular layout idea means that I have to assume its not in block signal territory, the next modules could be anything. Would a manned interlocking exist in the middle of dark territory?

  

2. Are the connection switches part of the interlocking (manually controlled by the interlocking operator) or are they outside the interlocking? The interlocking limits are all the track and appurtenances between the home signals of the interlocking. If the switches are part of the interlocking, controlled by the operator, the home signals will be outboard of the points of the connection switches. If the switches are hand throw switches lined by the crews, the home signals will be inboard of the switches.

 

The real MX tower disappeared as a working building at or before the time the switches (and the land the connection is built on) appeared so it only ever controlled the diamond. From the aerial views is appears that it was replaced by some equipment cabinets. However for the sake of modelling interest I'm saying that it remained and it does control the switches, so the signals will be outboard.

 

If you are outside a block signal system, then the main track signals for the interlocking would just have clear and stop as indications. If the connection was within the interlocking then, when lined for the connection they would probably get a low/slow/restricting signal (something that says proceed through the interlocking limits at restricted/low/slow speed. If the interlocking does not include the switches the home signals would have 1 head most likely, if the interlocking included the switches the home signals would have 2 heads most likely.

I think that's what I was looking for. So it would have two types of signal, clear and stop single headed ones on the two approaches without no route options and low/slow/restricting two headed ones on the two approaches with switches.

 

Next questions are; what colours the aspects should be? how far back from the diamond should the single headed signals be? (the other two signals are limited by the module ends)

[JWB]

As Dave H pointed out, exactly how it's signaled will depend on era, traffic levels, what other signaling is or isn't in effect on the lines, and the practices of the individual railroad. In addition, the chord in the lower quadrant might be a running track, or it might be just an interchange spur where cars are exchanged but full trains don't travel. Assuming it's a running track and other signal arrangements are simple, here's where I would put the least complicated option:

However, I'm not a professional railroader, and beyond that, specific practices will differ among railroads.

 

[dave1905]

The only picture I could find on the net for the crossing in service :

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=lake+monona+railroad&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=lake+monona+railroad&sc=0-15&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&id=A102DCCE53DC07E31AEDA20BF523D77C91C5B930&selectedIndex=4

 

puts the tower in a different spot.  You have the tower situated in the south quadrant between the connection and the diamond.  The picture instead places the tower in the east quadrant (assuming "up" on your diagram is north).

 

Since the train going across the diamond is a MILW train, that probably means they were using the Consolidated Code of Operating Rules.   Based on the signal in the foreground of the above picture, it appears that it only displays 4 aspects.  The top semaphore might be able to display 3 colors/positions.  The middle head only has one lens so probably only displays one color.  The bottom head only displays 2 colors.  My guesses are that the connection switches are within the interlocking and when lined for the main track the signals display clear (G-R-R top to bottom), approach (Y-R-R), and stop (R-R-R).  When lined for the conncetion it displays restricting (R-R-Lunar).

 

The only reason American signals are confusing is that you compare across multiple railroads.  If you pick one railroad's rules and stick with that, they aren't that complicated at all.

[JWB]

  

Would a manned interlocking exist in the middle of dark territory?

  

 

 

Yes, definitely, and the signaling would probably be pretty much like what's above. However, you might also have train order signals mounted on the tower itself, for one or both of the crossing lines, in addition to the interlocking signals.

[Talltim]

As Dave H pointed out, exactly how it's signaled will depend on era, traffic levels, what other signaling is or isn't in effect on the lines, and the practices of the individual railroad. In addition, the chord in the lower quadrant might be a running track, or it might be just an interchange spur where cars are exchanged but full trains don't travel. Assuming it's a running track and other signal arrangements are simple, here's where I would put the least complicated option:

post-6836-0-01380700-1375448005_thumb.jpg

However, I'm not a professional railroader, and beyond that, specific practices will differ among railroads.

 Your diagram reproduces what Dave's explanation led me to work out, however you've added a couple of dwarf signals. I assume these are to allow a train using the connection/chord to past the signal before the switch and stop ont he chord while awaiting a path? Are these a red on/off aspect?

 

The only picture I could find on the net for the crossing in service :

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=lake+monona+railroad&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=lake+monona+railroad&sc=0-15&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&id=A102DCCE53DC07E31AEDA20BF523D77C91C5B930&selectedIndex=4

 

puts the tower in a different spot.  You have the tower situated in the south quadrant between the connection and the diamond.  The picture instead places the tower in the east quadrant (assuming "up" on your diagram is north).

 

Since the train going across the diamond is a MILW train, that probably means they were using the Consolidated Code of Operating Rules.   Based on the signal in the foreground of the above picture, it appears that it only displays 4 aspects.  The top semaphore might be able to display 3 colors/positions.  The middle head only has one lens so probably only displays one color.  The bottom head only displays 2 colors.  My guesses are that the connection switches are within the interlocking and when lined for the main track the signals display clear (G-R-R top to bottom), approach (Y-R-R), and stop (R-R-R).  When lined for the conncetion it displays restricting (R-R-Lunar).

The only reason American signals are confusing is that you compare across multiple railroads.  If you pick one railroad's rules and stick with that, they aren't that complicated at all.

Good spot on the location of the tower, at this stage its simple to move! I'm going for something more generic (and simpler) than the signal in the pic although its interesting to learn how it works. Seems complicated when the only real options for the train (remembering that it was just diamond at the time) are go or stop.

[dave1905]

The dwarf signals aren't really necessary,  it depends on how the interlocking is connected.  If the conncetion is truly used as a connection and not an interchange, then I would hook it up so that when one conncetion switch is reversed, the other is reversed also.  In that case the home signal indication for the diverging route would be all that was necessary. 

 

By the way, did you notice that the actual larger track configuration, at least in the modern era is really a wye with a leg bisecting it.  On your track diagram the connection is in the southern quadrant.  There is also a connection between the legs in the eastern quadrant that is entirely "on shore", making it a de facto wye.

[dave1905]

I stand corrected.  While you have the tower pried up, don't glue it down just yet.  I got confused betwen your track diagram and the photos.  Looking at the historical photo the camera is facing the capital which means its looking north.  On the actual physical location the connection is in the east quadrant, which would put the tower in the south quadrant or on your track diagram, to the left of the diamond in the west quadrant or the northwest quadrant of the module plan, facing the line from the upper left to the lower right.

 

That also means that the signal in the picture can't give any signals into the connection. 

[dave1905]

The dwarf signals would proably display red/green, stop/clear.  In US practice a signal that is "off" i.e. dark, unlit, is the same as if it was red.  A dark signal makes the indication the most restrictive the signal could display (typically stop or stop and proceed).

[Talltim]

The dwarf signals aren't really necessary,  it depends on how the interlocking is connected.  If the conncetion is truly used as a connection and not an interchange, then I would hook it up so that when one conncetion switch is reversed, the other is reversed also.  In that case the home signal indication for the diverging route would be all that was necessary. 

 

By the way, did you notice that the actual larger track configuration, at least in the modern era is really a wye with a leg bisecting it.  On your track diagram the connection is in the southern quadrant.  There is also a connection between the legs in the eastern quadrant that is entirely "on shore", making it a de facto wye.

I was planning it as connection rather than an interchange and so was planning to connect the switch motors. No dwarf signals makes it easier. I has noticed the wye, I'm not sure when it was put in. maybe a possible future module extension? (although as my causeways are far shorter than real life the curve might get a bit sharp) 

 

I stand corrected.  While you have the tower pried up, don't glue it down just yet.  I got confused betwen your track diagram and the photos.  Looking at the historical photo the camera is facing the capital which means its looking north.  On the actual physical location the connection is in the east quadrant, which would put the tower in the south quadrant or on your track diagram, to the left of the diamond in the west quadrant or the northwest quadrant of the module plan, facing the line from the upper left to the lower right.

 

That also means that the signal in the picture can't give any signals into the connection.

Sorry, neither of my diagrams is the 'right way up'!

For such an interesting location there appears to be little information and few photos on the net. However what I've found

 

The first causeway (NW-SE) was built in 1854 by the Milwaukee & Mississippi Railroad

The second (NE-SW) was built in 1864 Chicago and Northwestern Railroad and the diamond at MX Tower was created

By 1878 the on shore wye was built

The John Nolen Causeway was built in 1967

I'm assuming, but haven't found confirmation yet, that the connection/chord was built in 1967 or later.

[Glorious NSE]

As Dave H pointed out, exactly how it's signaled will depend on era, traffic levels, what other signaling is or isn't in effect on the lines, and the practices of the individual railroad. In addition, the chord in the lower quadrant might be a running track, or it might be just an interchange spur where cars are exchanged but full trains don't travel. Assuming it's a running track and other signal arrangements are simple, here's where I would put the least complicated option:

post-6836-0-01380700-1375448005_thumb.jpg

However, I'm not a professional railroader, and beyond that, specific practices will differ among railroads.

 

I would go for this plan by JWB but leaving out the dwarfs (the only reason I can think for them is if you planned to allow for something to be left on the chord clear of both lines - maybe a loco or RDC?)

 

The one-head signals would be dead easy red/green, the two head would have an upper red/green head, and a lower red/green head.

Aspects would be:

Clear (straight through) - Green / Green over Red

Diverging Clear (chord) - Red over Green

Stop - Red / Red over Red

Signals must have no number plate (as that would make them permissive, which you don't want at an interlocking)

 

You should be able to translate each head into a simple semaphore if you want to go that way - the one on that image looks like a 2 head semaphore which suggests a diverging route 'somewhere' - was there a passing siding the other side (maybe off the lake?) that would account for that maybe?

[Talltim]

Thanks all for your help, I knew you'd know!

[JWB]

Regarding dwarf signals, my own inclination would be never to turn down a credible opportunity for eye candy.

Green-and-dark would be easy to wire, and a lot of mine are wired that way.

But if you have an interlocking, don't forget other incidentals like battery vaults, relay cases, maintenance trucks, etc.

[Talltim]

Brian, do you have some form of train detection to set the signal to red after its passed, or is that manual?

[bxmoore]

Brian, do you have some form of train detection to set the signal to red after its passed, or is that manual?

The wires are in for train detection, but as yet unused, and I doubt they will be. Problem is, we would have to have a resistor on a wheel of each item of stock to make it work meaningfully, and it just wouldn't happen with the numbers of club members who attend and bring stock.  It's beyond reasonability to insist that only resistor-equipped stock can be put on the layout.

 

However, when the dispatcher sets the switches and then the signal to green or yellow (dependent on the route), they are programmed to change back to red after 45 seconds, whether the train proceeds or not.  It's a compromise, but it does allow a bit of offering a nod to the "safety" part, and it means that the engineer really has to pay attention to the signal aspect.

 

Our experience so far is that everyone understands how to read the simplified signals properly.  I would doubt, though, some would ever get the hang of what, for example, a red over green means, as opposed to a green over red (as discussed above).  As I always try to point out, if the primary requirement is for any module to be used with a number of others, and by people who have no prior knowledge of how it works, then KISS should always be the order of the day. 

 

Hoping that some folk will understand anything more than the most basic of signals on a working modular set-up is, in my experience, only creating potential for trouble that could otherwise be avoided.

 

Brian

[JWB]

More incidentals: note the code line, the relay case, and the speed restriction board:

 

[Glorious NSE]

Our experience so far is that everyone understands how to read the simplified signals properly.  I would doubt, though, some would ever get the hang of what, for example, a red over green means, as opposed to a green over red (as discussed above).  As I always try to point out, if the primary requirement is for any module to be used with a number of others, and by people who have no prior knowledge of how it works, then KISS should always be the order of the day. 

 

It's not that complicated, if you wanted a less jargon way of describing it you could think of it as the top head for the straight route, and the lower head for the diverging one if you liked - ultimately if anyone gets confused, the thing to remember is 'if it's not all red, it's not red at all....'

[bxmoore]

It's not that complicated, if you wanted a less jargon way of describing it you could think of it as the top head for the straight route, and the lower head for the diverging one if you liked - ultimately if anyone gets confused, the thing to remember is 'if it's not all red, it's not red at all....'

Ah, you've not been operating at Hilltop for a while then, Mr R...  As far as a few would be concerned, that's too complicated already. 

[Jon Gwinnett]

This isn't going to add much to the thread I'm afraid, but as a Badger fan and sometime WSOR modeller I love this concept!

[Talltim]

Wood being cut!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/9428687916_9db0c26a5f_c.jpg

[shortliner]

This isn't going to add much to the thread I'm afraid, but as a Badger fan and sometime WSOR modeller I love this concept!

 

Eh, Oop! Jon's back - where ya bin, Bruv?

[Jon Gwinnett]

Eh, Oop! Jon's back - where ya bin, Bruv?

I'm still here, been busy with new job this past year, and dabbling in all sorts of odd stuff, British OO, N and so on. Not doing anything very productive, but never mind! Just missed you at Perth, and apologies to Tim for the hijack.