Soldering - Again!

[w1cdo]

To each of you kind folks who have been helping me,

 

As you respond to my questions thread drift is creeping in that is more or less specifically directed to answering my queries about this wonderful new adventure attempting to build some of the great kits produced there with you in the homeland.

 

To keep this on subject, I would like to begin, unless there is objection, a new thread that encompasses my efforts with the MMP Brake Goods coach.  In accompaniment with David Parkin's excellent instructions, Simon Varnam has done a 286 photo description of his build, the combination of both being my bible. I chose this project, advanced for me, based on their excellent descriptions that I am going to use as a guide.

 

 In as much as Simon has done an excellent build log already, my sole reason for proposing a thread is to benefit from your possible critiques and advices. I have never done this type of work before - as previously stated my soldering experience is from electronics. In all things I try to work to the highest possible standard. If I can post my efforts, hopefully you will comment and assist my work.

 

I live on Cougar Mountain. Believe it or not, from my window, the Country Club I can see is not only in Newcastle but is built on the tailings of an extensive coal mine! Does that sound familiar? Western Washington, a hundred years ago was a major coal producing area.

 

I love the way that many of you give your model train layout a name. Most of them are attractive and quaint to my ear. I do not plan anything more than displaying my models for my own enjoyment, but having said that hope I might continue to learn from you and attach a name to my endeavor which is not an insignificant effort. Would "The Cougar Mountain Rail Authority" be appropriate for a thread ?

 

Thank you everyone for your advices .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John Maguire

Seattle

[halfwit]

As for carrying solder on the iron tip - I'm afraid that is another thorny issue I take exception to. Two main reasons being I was taught never to do it and the heat denatures the solder. I set up the join and add very small chips of solder wire - sometime only one is required then splosh on plenty of flux then bring in the hot tinned iron. I don't care if the solder runs freely off the tip - indeed I want it to stay off the tip and stay where I put it (the join)

 

 

The consensus  appears to be cutting off a tiny piece of solder first. That is so contrary to sixty years of soldering in electronics, but I am easily adaptable. When in Rome. .  .  .  .  .

 

I'm with K on this one, but for a different reason. It's easier to control the amount of solder used if its cut from wire rather than melting a piece on the tip. Less solder used means less cleaning. Small chips can be picked up with a wet flux brush and put exactly where needed. I will carry solder to a joint on the tip if necessary (I've done it tonight when soldering an overlay in place, both parts being held in tweezers) but its a practice I prefer to avoid.

[Kenton]

... and if you use solder paste (not solder paint) you apply it with a syringe and a dot of it is all you require. Other than seaming I almost exclusively use solder paste these days. (brass and n/s of course) ... and as for overlays, well the RSU is the tool.

[ZiderHead]

I do it just like I did with electronics - just feed it in as required straight from a reel of 0.5mm so theres no waste and no cleanup. I figure stick with what you're used to as long as it works Ive only used 145deg for laminating larger flat pieces, where the strength either isn't important or comes from the surface area, and the lower temp helps because the heat is less localised.

[buffalo]

As for carrying solder on the iron tip - I'm afraid that is another thorny issue I take exception to. Two main reasons being I was taught never to do it and the heat denatures the solder...

 

Still repeating that old wives' tale, Kenton   As I've said before, just look up the boiling points of the metals used in solders. None are less than 700 degrees and most are around 1200-1500 degrees. It's fine when talking about electronic soldering with cored solders as you don't want the flux to boil off before it reaches the work, but it just doesn't matter when the flux is applied directly to the work. The only real argument for placing chips of solder on the work is to control the amount of solder you use. It's just a matter of what you are most comfortable with.

 

Nick

[Kenton]

 

Still repeating that old wives' tale, Kenton   As I've said before, just look up the boiling points of the metals used in solders. None are less than 700 degrees and most are around 1200-1500 degrees. It's fine when talking about electronic soldering with cored solders as you don't want the flux to boil off before it reaches the work, but it just doesn't matter when the flux is applied directly to the work. The only real argument for placing chips of solder on the work is to control the amount of solder you use. It's just a matter of what you are most comfortable with.

 

Nick

Never suggested the metal boiled did I? More a case of oxidised. But as I said the No 1 reason was that was the way I was taught and I am yet to see any good justification why I should change the method that has worked well for years. Carrying globs of solder on the iron to the work seems to me to also run the risk it will fall off the tip onto something (like your fingers holding the job or worse) and burn it. It just seems to make so much more sense to place the solder at the join add flux at the join and then simply apply heat. Besides, wasn't the complaint about it not staying on the tip even when tinned?

[ZiderHead]

Theres definitely something going on when you heat solder for a while - its never as shiny after you've reworked it ...

[buffalo]

  Never suggested the metal boiled did I?...

No, you said "...heat denatures the solder...". To me, that suggests that you think it in some way alters its composition. Where's the evidence?

...More a case of oxidised...

Fine, most molten metals will acquire some surface scum, but in the few seconds needed to make a joint it is nothing to worry about. After all, the flux acts on both the work and the solder to help produce a clean joint.

...But as I said the No 1 reason was that was the way I was taught and I am yet to see any good justification why I should change the method that has worked well for years...

No reason at all why you should change. As I said, do what you're comfortable with, but why invent pseudo-scientific arguments against other methods? I'm happy to use several different methods and find all equally viable.

...Carrying globs of solder on the iron to the work seems to me to also run the risk it will fall off the tip onto something (like your fingers holding the job or worse) and burn it...

Now that is just a straw man. Anyone who does it this way soon finds out how much solder can be carried on a tip of a particular size and works within that limit. When I use this method, the amounts of solder involved are normally very small and well within such limits.

 

Nick

[Kenton]

Nick

We appear to be on opposite sides of a very high fence on this one, lobbing stones over at each other is hardly going to benefit anyone.

 

What I am yet to hear is any suggestion/reason why the method I advocate (add solder and flux to job and apply heat) is not a good method compared to the one you advocate (add flux to job, melt solder on iron and carry to job)

 

Of course there is also the question of what do you do when using other heat sources (gas torch, RSU) both of which would prove impossible to carry molten solder. I suppose we then have one rule for one tool and another rule for another tool. Seems confusing when one rule would work for all soldering.

[Arthur]

We all know that both methods work and both produce a strong enough joint. I'm a 'solder on the iron' man.

 

I can dry assemble the parts, pick up the iron and, on its way to the joint, touch it on the solder wire picking up enough solder to make the joint. To me, the other method requires an extra step, the cutting off and placing of the little chip of solder. Yes, if I'm using a gas torch I'd need to do the latter, but I haven't needed to use a gas torch for years (I only build 4mm mind, so in 7mm I might have to).

 

Those new to soldering will find the method that woks for them, old hands will just argue about it

[Arthur]

I agree absolutely Kenton. Clearly, on some things there will be no disagreement, the need for cleanliness, enough heat in the iron etc. What doesn't help is, that where there are options, experienced hands stating that theirs is the only way or the right way. Explain your method and rationale by all means, in an open manner, and let the newcomer find what best suits them.

[ozzyo]

I use both methods, it's just deciding which ones going to be the best for the job in hand. 

 

When I was taught to solder a few (ha) years back, it was with an iron that was a block of copper about 3/4" square on a steel stick with a wooden handle. The iron was placed in a gas furnace until hot, then tinned as required, and then placed on the job and solder applied (this was plumbers stick solder). Most of the work was done this way as the joints were locking seam joints and we did not want a lot of solder on the outside (more cleaning up to do).

 

But we always had some solder on the tip that was liquid. The reason for that we were told, is that the liquid solder helps to transfer the heat from the iron to the job (when you may only get about 5mins. working time per reheat you want the heat to get into the job the best way you can).

 

When I started to make models most of the joints were butt type joints with no mechanical locking of them (OK some tab and slot types you can twist the tab), so the natural way to apply the solder was to carry it on the iron, then you can hold the second part in place. One thing about doing it this way is that if you have a bit too much solder on the iron you can normally "stretch" it away from the joint. Or apply some more from the wire when the first part has gripped.

 

I have an engineering book that has has a few pages devoted to soldering that is out of copyright, that I could scan and post if you think that it would help?  

 

As I said at the start, it's deciding which one is going to be the best for the job in hand. No one method is right, no one method is wrong, as both will work.

 

OzzyO.      

[Andy Y]

For Kenton - re your report.

 

We've not removed anything from this topic so we've not "interrupted the flow for unfathomable reasons". Maybe you'd inadvertently deleted it?

[Kenton]

 

For Kenton - re your report.

 

We've not removed anything from this topic so we've not "interrupted the flow for unfathomable reasons". Maybe you'd inadvertently deleted it?

Thanks Andy for looking into it.

As far as I know I didn't delete it (the post was made following Arthur's post #60 and prior to his post #61 - post numbers only reflect current situation) the Mod's email notification message appeared while I was inactive on RMWeb further supporting not having accidentally deleted it.

Oh well, put it down to the mysteries of RMWeb. Like most of my posts - not really that important.