Switcher102 Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this but I can't see where else to place it, after all, steam is the actual motor for a steam locomotive. I've never really been happy with a steam locomotive that does not produce steam (steam effect). Live steam at the scale I model, O gauge, does not do the business for me because it just does not look realistic. I am aiming to make my steamers 'steam' via the steam effect of smoke generators BUT … the big question is 'What about those dissadavantages?' Such as the mess and health issues. Has anyone ever heard of KM1 Modellbau? What is more to the point, has anyone ever seen these superb locomotives in the 'flesh'?:- They are gauge 1 scale. Apparently on their new models they even have steam shooting out of the whistle. They have exhibitions with these locomotives so I'm wondering if anyone has ever been to such shows and has anything to say about such first hand experience? I think it would have to be in Germany, but if they are ever exhibited over here please enlighten me. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switcher102 Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 Forgot to mention. Don't electronic cigarettes work the same way as these model smoke generators? I think they use the same fuel i.e. polyglycol (I think). Apparently there are no restrictions on smoking electronic cigarettes inside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Hello Switcher, I have this http://www.km-1.de/html/nachrustrauchentwickler.html which is a very nice unit and directly supported by ESU in their Lok Programmer. I acquired it to experiment in the fitting of smoke units to my O gauge diesel locos but much beyond playing with the unit to see what it does outside of a loco I have not done much more. But it is very nice, well made, highly configurable and easily serviced when it comes to installing it or adding smoke oil once installed. Using the dedicated programming outputs from the ESU V4 XL decoder it can be made to do all sorts of things to match what you want. Of course where the smoke goes is in some ways the hardest part. Doing a diesel loco is easy as you are only trying to replicate the exhaust of the loco which normally is on the roof. Doing a steam loco there are two options to reproduce, smoke and steam. The video show both as it shows cylinder drains being open, steam, as well as the exhaust from the chimney, smoke. Either there are two smoke units or some very clever switching in the pipework to cover this but I suspect there are dedicated ports on the smoke unit to duct the smoke to the relevant areas as required to complete the impression of smoke and steam. It does do this very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switcher102 Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 Hello Two Tone Green Thanks for that. Here's a translation of that page:- http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.km-1.de/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkm1%2Bmodellbau%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D599 I'd love to get my hands on one of their locomotives and open it up. When you get around to using this smoke generator I'd be interested on your views of any residue it leaves (if any) on the locomotives and track and any atmosphere issues. I've looked at their web site before but hadn't noticed that page. They offer these units to fit O gauge, which is my gauge, and I'm wondering if they use a different fuel for their smoke units i.e. a less harmfull less messy fuel. This is why I am keen to hear first hand experience of these locomotives. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I did a test using a wagon with an ESU V4 XL decoder and the smoke unit on it and dragged it along behind a loco. I matched the CV1 numbers and CV values so the smoke unit XL matched the loco XL decoder so both decoders reacted as if it was one and the smoke unit worked its magic as if it was inside the loco driven by the decoder in the loco. It worked well and the response was very good. Because it is so configurable it does work very well from a diesel point of view. Cannot say what the steam representation is like but I suspect it is similar. As for smell during operation, as good as none. Residue, none that I noticed but over time possibly. Total time I ran mine for was about an hour. But just how much would you run it any way. Like sound I tend to turn it off at times as it does get a bit much. So one hour of intensive running could be spread over quite a lot of time, weeks months even. If there a bad side to this I suspect it would be out there in the open with lots of 'don't do this' from all quarters. Try posting on some of the German forums, even in English and you may well get a response, nice ones that is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 .....Has anyone ever heard of KM1 Modellbau? What is more to the point, has anyone ever seen these superb locomotives in the 'flesh'?.... Yes. You need to be in a certain income bracket to afford models like these. I'm not in it. They make Golden Age look cheap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switcher102 Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 Two Tone Green quote:- "I did a test using a wagon with an ESU V4 XL decoder and the smoke unit on it …." Wow, thanks Two Tone. That's interesting. An hour sounds good but then if it was pushing out as much as a diesel does compared to a steamer then that perhaps is equivalent to about 10 minutes for the latter. I don't know, what do you reckon? I wonder if they use the same fuel as Seuthe? What puzzles me about the KM1s is that the 'steam' from the cylinders hangs around on the ground like dry ice. I've posted this post on the O gauge forum aswell and someone has just mentioned about pond foggers which use water instead of oil. Water and electricity aren't exactly the best of mates and I don't know anything about pond foggers but the fog does hang low rather than 'fly' like steam. I'm puzzled by your sentence "If there a bad side to this I suspect it would be out there in the open with lots of 'don't do this' from all quarters". Okey, I'll try posting on a German forum. Didn't think of that. Horsetan, quote:- "You need to be in a certain income bracket to afford models like these." Oh I know, I'm not thinking of buying one, I'm thinking of making one (wrong scale for me anyway). It's just that I want to make my steamers 'steam', and from as many places as I can practically manage. I would much rather have just one steamer that actually 'steams' than any number that don't. I'm not that bothered about quantity. So, you've actually seen these locomotives for real then? Did you see a lot of shiny oily mess about them, and was there a funny smell in the air? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 ....you've actually seen these locomotives for real then? Did you see a lot of shiny oily mess about them, and was there a funny smell in the air? Only once. I happen to be a great admirer of German standard steam, and have very slowly been making progress towards an engine or two in P87. The engine I saw had a sheen to it, but I wouldn't have said it was particularly messy or smelly. "Dynamic smoke" has been tried in 1:87 as well; Roco offered it as an option on their all-new DB Br.10 Pacific, at a cost of about 500 quid RTR. It was very convincing. Demo video here: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Here's a data sheet for a typical example of a vapour maker, used for stage effects and the like. http://www.bathstudent.com/pageassets/transport/meep/coshh-data-sheet-smoke-machine.pdf Had a chat with a stage technician friend who says there is minimal mess, temperature of the evaporator unit is relatively low and thus easy to protect, no side effects from the vapour he's aware of. The data sheet confirms that, basically don't drink the liquid, in the vapour phase the concentration is low enough not to be a concern. Keep your liquid ammonia and fuming nitric acid well away from it is all - but then who carries that around in their back pocket? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I wonder if the dynamic generator is available as a spare part from Roco....hmmm..... The spares sheet for the Br.10 makes interesting reading as the smoke unit and its drive motor are listed as spares, but little clue is given as to the dynamic function parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Well, having inquired of said stage tech friend about such generators, he bowled up this afternoon with a free sample from 'Hunter Systems' which had been tried out on a theatrical project. Originally designed for model boats, to run on a 12V up to 2.5A supply, 30x40x50mm in size. 10ml of the distillate made half an hours worth of enough smoke to make a very impressive show for a 7mm scale model large enough to accomodate it, or a G1/10mm loco. Aternatively in smaller scales it would fug up a large loco shed very convincingly; or you can make lingering fog in a confined space, nice effect as the train goes through it.. If I can find where I have dumped carefully stored for future use a couple of old Seuthe type units, I will give the distillate a try in those. Odourless and inoffensive output, no residue, looks like a good bet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Hi Switcher, As for I'm puzzled by your sentence "If there a bad side to this I suspect it would be out there in the open with lots of 'don't do this' from all quarters". Well I meant that if people were experiencing bad side effect then people would be posting all over the place about it. As for smoke quantity output, I ran it at various out puts controlled by fan speed and heater temp. But at max output, it really does put out enough to reduce you to low visability movements around the room and crawling on the floor to find the way out. ESU have their own smoke generators in the pipe line and from what I know may be a 'better shape' than the drum, pipe shape that the KM1 is. If you are not in a rush then waiting to see what they bring out may be worth it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 .....ESU have their own smoke generators in the pipe line ... Will they be made small enough to go into 1:76 and 1:87 engines? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 I would say O and above. But have a look on the web site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switcher102 Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 Yep, thats the KM1 unit in the video. Well made and works well. The fact that when its hooked up to the ESU Lok Programmer is fully tweakable makes it even more user friendly. Steam, diesel and the smell of burning out electric locos are easily reproduced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 Looking at the ESU web site the so called gauge 1 version is not exactly big 50 x 28 x 30mm so the O gauge one will be smaller but no dimensions for this. http://www.esu.eu/en/products/accessories/raucherzeuger/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switcher102 Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 What on earth's happened to my post? I only went in to edit out the big space at the bottom and look what's happened? Or is it only me who can see all that coding? Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 Gosh switcher, thats impressive. Must have taken hours to type that lot in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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