TCS Direct Pin Controller - DP2X-UK

[jcredfer]

Hi All,

I recently managed to find a new Harry Potter Train Set, which I thought might shortly suit my daughter [to play with, rather than wear]. There were 4 to chose from - 3 with straight DC and one of the last Sets which Hornby brought out, for the last book, R1092 - Order of the Phoenix, which was DCC Ready. The choice wasn't difficult, particularly as there was only £5 difference in the price.

 

I have a Shunting Puzzle, in DCC, with DCC Frog Juicers which wasn't a running in option. I, therefore, put out the Trackmat on a tiled floor, with Rails and connected to a DC Controller. The Loco ran fine and smoothly, which was a rather pleasing sight, even on the rather lurid Trackmat.

 

Time for DCC then, so advice was looked for on the various websites with information. One of the Websites had some particularly good descriptions and pictures, but of the earlier split Chassis Castle Class. The advice included the information that the inside is Toadstool. This wasn't a problem, as DCC ready has to be similar but easier to do than for a DC one ..... one might have thought. ...... 

I since found a site which describes fitting the later Castle Class model and this confirmed what I gleaned from the previous site  ......   one might have thought.

They also came up with some written advice about use of a TCS DP2X-UK Decoder, which does not have a Harness and plugs straight into the DCC Socket. Better still ...... one might have thought.

In accord with the advice and the Quiet Drive with auto-adjusting BEMF for low speed performance advertised features, I sent for one of these Decoders.

 

The Loco was opened up and I pleased to note that it was a solid Chassis with a much more modern Skew-wound 5-Pole Motor., with separate 3 wheel pick-ups on each side.

The Decoder was fitted and the body placed on top, for a trial run. It didn't move, although the Headlight came on. Clearly there was Power available, as the Headlight showed. [NB - The Headlight should not take on any further, great significance, as it runs direct from the Pick-ups.]

 

I tried a number of tests to find where the problem lay

1. Reset the Address to 3 - no go.

2. Tried the Decoder in another Loco - no go.

3. Tried the Decoder from the other Loco, in the Castle - it worked.

4. Tried a different Address in both Locos - no go.

5. Did a Factory Reset - no go.

6. Sent it back to the shop - they tried it and said it worked, so sent it back. [i have no reason to disbelieve the shop, as I was on the Telephone as he did it.] - still no go.

7. I have a Direct Plug, DCC Concepts DP4SAX, which works [beautifully] on the other Loco, but is 1.5mm too long to go into the Castle.

 

After further failed attempts, I emailed TCS, who seemed quite friendly and suggested the Elite was the culprit. He asked which type of Decoder was the one which had worked. I thought it was the Hornby basic one, to which I got this by return email:-

You just said the magic word " basic Hornby decoder". They are like basic Bachmann. They are low end and work well with low end " Elite types".

It's like a fine Rolls Royce and putting regular petrol in it! Ugh! hey do not comply to NMRA minimum standards and unfortunately

there is a lot of stuff out there today and there is NO NMRA Police to enforce conformance.

He went on to suggest use of another make of Controller [which I shall not mention, at least not as yet, as it is not pertinent to the problem and would probably stir up much distracting waffle.]

 

Relevant information to the DP2X-UK is in 1.-6. above. It looks as though the this particular Decoder does not like the Elite. 7. is relevant to the ability of the Elite to control high level Decoders.

Not relevant is the Hornby basic level Decoder and I am fairly confident that the Elite [not the Select] is not low end, particularly since upgrade to vs 1.41 has been done and the performance with the DCC Concepts DP4SAX.

 

Questions:

1. Given the above information, should I expect the DP2X-UK to work with the Elite and return the Decoder again for refund as not fit for purpose?

2. Given the above information, should I change the Elite and buy another Controller, so as to be able to run the DDP2X-UK?

3. Given the above information, is there a suitable Direct Plug Decoder which I could replace the DP2X-UK?

 

Regards and thanks for reading.

J

 

[Bulleidboy100]

I don't think I can really answer your problem, but I use an Elite and only this week fitted a DP2X-UK into a Hornby Merchant Navy Class. It has only been tested on the rolling road, but it appears to operate well - the slow running is very good indeed. I have fitted this decoder into a number of loco's, and so far have had no problems. My only problem with the DP2X-UK is finding anyone who has them in stock - I very recently bought six from the US at £15 each.

[Nigelcliffe]

Questions:

1. Given the above information, should I expect the DP2X-UK to work with the Elite and return the Decoder again for refund as not fit for purpose?

2. Given the above information, should I change the Elite and buy another Controller, so as to be able to run the DDP2X-UK?

3. Given the above information, is there a suitable Direct Plug Decoder which I could replace the DP2X-UK?

 

 

Number 1.   You've tried the decoder in two locos, both fail to operate.    You have tried another decoder in both locos and the other decoder works both locos.  The common device not working is the decoder.   Can you read any CV's from this decoder on the programming track ?  That's usually helpful in diagnosing problems.  Are you certain you have performed the correct CV change on the programming track for a reset of the TCS decoder (ie. the values in the TCS documentation).

       

There is an outside chance of a fault in the Elite, but that seems very unlikely given what has been said. Any such fault would mean a repair at Hornby.

 

 

 

Whilst people criticise Hornby products, some of that criticism is mis-placed.  Their original Select controller was hopeless and arguably not really DCC.  After getting a total panning in some technically minded DCC publications, Hornby improved their approach. 

The Elite conforms to NMRA standards, its one of very few on sale with a conformance certificate, though that was for v1.2.  So it might be amusing to hear which was suggested as an alternative to conform to NMRA standards :-) .  

The Elite is often criticised for a poor user interface (there are many which are a lot better to use), but it functionally works.   

Decoders are a different matter,  yes, the cheap Hornby and Bachmann decoders can be poor, but other decoders in their ranges are OK (though perhaps not brilliant).

 

NMRA conformance certificates  http://www.nmra.org/standards/candi/warrants.html

 

 

- Nigel

[jcredfer]

Thank you for the information Bulliedboy  .........

 

You may find Digitrains and Hattons seem to have them  ...      probably restocked with loads of them because of your earlier enquiries.

 

The Elite seems to talk to all the other Decoders without any problem. I am not at all sure it is the problem.

 

J

[smokebox]

I've got two DP2X-UK decoders which work perfectly well with my Elite.  You could try resetting the Elite as this can cure all sorts of weird problems.

[jcredfer]

Thank you Nigel & Smokebox,

 

It is good to have both of your replies, as they follow good logical paths.

 

Smokebox adds to the evidence that TCS Decoders are reliable products and Nigel for reinforcing the Elite development angle too.

 

 

I am inclined to a further test, to obtain a loan of another type of Controller on loan and check the two Locos and Decoder, in situ.

I confess I am not quite sure where to obtain one but I have a good local dealer who might know of a club that might be able to assist.

 

 

Regards

 

J

[jcredfer]

Hi,

An idea from elsewhere led me to try something I had not done before [because it didn't seem a reasonable test - but in the absence of positive results from normal tests]

 

  ....   it reminded me that it has to be the right way round and wondered if it or wiring might somehow be reversed.

I tried it on a Class 08, because the Decoder will only go one way in the Castle, which fortunately is the correct orientation according to the TCS documentation.

It made no difference which way round it was turned, it still won't go.

 

NB. - I just checked some CVs again, since it had been at the Suppliers, to make sure the Controller was reading them. The Controller happily supplied CV information for the Address = 4 and Factory set of CV 8. = 153.

 

 

J

[Nigelcliffe]

Check CV29, it should be a low number, something like 2 or 6.    I'm wondering if it has been stuck in "long" addressing.

 

Check CV19.  It should be Zero.    I'm wondering if accidentally the decoder is stuck in a "consist", which would happen if CV19 were not zero.

 

Try a different address, preferably one you've not used before.  I'm wondering if a setting inside the Elite has messed up that address (perhaps using a controller-assisted consist ? ).  If that clears the problem, consider resetting the Elite to factory settings to clear things.

 

 

Other than that, stuck, decoder appears to be working on programming track, but not on controller. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Tony_S]

Did the shop you purchased the decoder from define "working"? They may have just identified it on the program track (as mentioned in the previous reply). Did they state that it worked in a loco as in backwards, forwards, change speed?

 

Tony

[SRman]

I like TCS decoders and have several DP2X and DP2X-UK decoders in use. 

 

I have had a couple of dud DP2X-UK decoders - not dead but they misbehaved so were returned under the TCS warranty and replaced.

[jcredfer]

Hi Tony,

 

You have set me thinking about that, as I was on the telephone when he checked the Loco  ......    but I don't remember him saying he was switching to or from Program track  ......

 

[i'm not saying he didn't do it, or even say so  ....   I simply don't remember.

 

Thank you for that, I will probably ring up and ask.

 

 

NB. My local shop owner has offered to try to run it in the shop, so I will pop down tomorrow and see   ...   but given the comment from TCS about Hornby and Bachmann that may not be conclusive. Only time will tell.

 

Thanks for that SRman, if I don't get anywhere I will try to return it.

 

Thanks Niget too. I checked those cvs and they were 29 = 2 and 19 = 0. I also changed the CV to DCC & DC from DCC only, to see if that might help, because the Controller is set to DCC & DC. still no go.

 

 

Many thanks to all contributors

 

I will report on events in the local shop..

 

J

Edit CV 19 = 0, Apologies to Nigel.

[Nigelcliffe]

Unless you've mistyped the above,  CV19 = 1 is your problem.   The loco is in a consist on address 1.   Change to CV19=0 and it will work.

 

- Nigel

[charliepetty]

I don't think I can really answer your problem, but I use an Elite and only this week fitted a DP2X-UK into a Hornby Merchant Navy Class. It has only been tested on the rolling road, but it appears to operate well - the slow running is very good indeed. I have fitted this decoder into a number of loco's, and so far have had no problems. My only problem with the DP2X-UK is finding anyone who has them in stock - I very recently bought six from the US at £15 each.

DC Kits in Leeds stock them.

[jcredfer]

Hi All,

 

Thank you for the replies.

 

I'm off to the local shop this morning, as he has offered to put it on his track with his [none - Elite] controller.        .............  

 

 

J

[jcredfer]

Hi,

Back from the shop test    ...

1. News on the Decoder front, is that the Shunter was fitted with the Decoder and taken to the local shop and tested. It was a Bachmann EZ and after 2 jerks [probably down to contact with the Rolling Road] it ran well in each direction. [As a comment, the shop-owner was of the opinion that the Decoder was the likely culprit, as the Elite is fully Compliant and speaks to every other Loco Decoder.]

NB. To be on the safe side, before I went any further, I did a Factory Reset on the Elite, to take it back to the original settings.

2. Bought the Loco back home and put it on the track, with the Elite switched on. It immediately ran backwards for 1/2 a rotation of the wheels and after that remained immobile regardless. I checked the Elite Throttle an it was closed when I put the Loco on the track.

I took the Loco off the track and put it back again [after checking the Controller Throttle was closed] and it did the same 1/2 rotation of the wheels, in a rearward direction.
I also put the Loco back on the track with and without the correct address and it did the same 1/2 rotation in a backward direction, each time.

Still refuses to run other than the initial 1/2 turn,   .........          

?? .. ??

[smokebox]

Can you try it on a short length of track with no connection to the main layout?

 

You could also try fitting "bus terminators" to the main layout.

[250BOB]

I don't have a high opinion of the TCS DP2X, having at one time had six of them, but I'm down to my last one....all failures.

I remember having to put insulating tape around the 8 pin receptacle on the loco, as when I pushed the decoder in all the way, it wouldn't work, but when I pushed the decoder in only part way, it was fine.

Something on the underside of the decoder was touching something when pushed in all the way, causing it to short.

Bob

[jcredfer]

Hi,

Another suggestion was to try it on a single piece of track, connected to the Controller.  Good idea, it eliminates another unknown.

 

The Decoder performed as before, with a shuffle backwards, when put onto the track and refused to do anything further.

 

I spoke to the Supplier today and they immediately said they would replace it for another or any other similar product  ....  

 

Thank you goes out to all the contributors here, for some first class advice and assistance.

 

 

J

[Phil S]

I don't have a high opinion of the TCS DP2X, having at one time had six of them, but I'm down to my last one....all failures.

I remember having to put insulating tape around the 8 pin receptacle on the loco, as when I pushed the decoder in all the way, it wouldn't work, but when I pushed the decoder in only part way, it was fine.

Something on the underside of the decoder was touching something when pushed in all the way, causing it to short.

Bob

I've experienced this situation before, with other NEM plugs/ direct decoders: the combined length of the pins, projecting through the 8-pin socket and coming  into contact with the metalwork of the chassis below ... sometimes only occuring once the body is refitted and adds a little extra downlward pressure.

 

One obvious, and recommended solution is to place an insulating layer (eg plasticard or insulating tape beneath the 8-pin socket, and the other is to trim the pins on the plug a little, so that when the decoder is 'fully down', the pins are not projecting beneath the socket and into contact with the conducting surface.

[jcredfer]

Thank you Phil,

I did try pulling the Decoder out a bit, after Bob's Post.  It didn't make any difference, so I assume this is not the case here.      ...........       however  ........

 

What strikes me about both of your Posts, is that a manufacturer, capable of designing a Decoder PCB, which id Fully Compliant, could make such a simple dog's testicle of the pin length.

 

 

J

[250BOB]

Hi J.

Keep us informed of the outcome, curious to know where the problem is.?

Bob

[autocoach]

I don't have a high opinion of the TCS DP2X, having at one time had six of them, but I'm down to my last one....all failures.

I remember having to put insulating tape around the 8 pin receptacle on the loco, as when I pushed the decoder in all the way, it wouldn't work, but when I pushed the decoder in only part way, it was fine.

Something on the underside of the decoder was touching something when pushed in all the way, causing it to short.

Bob

I actually have a high opinion of the TCS DP2X UK and have over 10 of them in operation. I use them as standard DCC decoders for my Hornby locomotives. Now I also use an NCE DCC SB3a setup with a PowerPro standard throttle (not the PowerCab which is now relegated to the programming track on the workbench.)  I have never had to reset any CV's.

 

My only wish is that TCS would produce the DP2X UK with an integrated Keep Alive so I don't have to wire PECO points.

[jcredfer]

A Solution.

 

I went to Newark Model Rail Show on Saturday and took the Decoder with me, as arranged with the Trader.

He put it on an ESU[?] Tester PCB and it ran perfectly with another type of Controller.

 

It was exchanged for a Digitrax DZ125PS, small 1.0 Amp Decoder, which fits into a slot in the Boiler/Smoke Box Weight, where the headlight cable runs.

I installed the Decoder and also tried another from DCC Concepts  .........................   both were quiet to run the Loco and worked with the Elite, without problem.

 

The Ditrax got the H Potter Castle and the DCC Concepts DCC-S2SAX went into a Class 08, which now runs quieter and with much more control than before.

It isn't quite where I started, but with nothing other than the DP2X-UK seeming to fit [albeit by 1mm at times]

 

I guess, what the eye doesn't see  .......   bit sad 'though  ..... 

 

 

J

[250BOB]

I actually have a high opinion of the TCS DP2X UK and have over 10 of them in operation. I use them as standard DCC decoders for my Hornby locomotives. Now I also use an NCE DCC SB3a setup with a PowerPro standard throttle (not the PowerCab which is now relegated to the programming track on the workbench.) I have never had to reset any CV's.

 

My only wish is that TCS would produce the DP2X UK with an integrated Keep Alive so I don't have to wire PECO points.

When you say you have never had to reset any cv's, do you mean that you use the decoder without altering any cv's?

If that is the case then you are probably never going to see any problems. It's when you do alter cv's 3, 4, 5 and 6 that my problems occur.

I have a largish layout with 1 in 80 gradients, and normally run expresses at a scale 40/50 mph, but when fitted with the DP2X the speed on the downgrades increases to about 60/70mph.

Because there are several trains running at once, I don't want to have to manually slow them each time they start down the gradient. There is a bend and a station at the bottom of the hill which the trains need to pass at no more than 40/50 or it looks daft.

Most people adjust cvs to get each loco they own performing to how they desire, otherwise I think you may as well stay with DC.

It appeared that the adjustments made to the decoders cv values were the ultimate cause of them failing......as under the exact same conditions and settings, all my Lenz standard decoders perform perfectly, and have NEVER once failed. I had so many DP2X failures, it wasn't just down to bad luck.

Bob

[RedgateModels]

Most people adjust cvs to get each loco they own performing to how they desire, otherwise I think you may as well stay with DC.

hmmmm, not sure about "most" Bob, I'd say "some", there are probably a lot of DCC users out there who only set the loco address, especially us "one engine in steam" boys

 

autocoach - it is possible to fit a stay alive to a DP2X-UK quite easily, the attachment points are obvious on the TCS website if you know what you are looking for. My MR Sentinel runs great with one so fitted with a home made capacitor pack