Crash in Ottawa

[The Lurker]

Bad news just keeps on coming in

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24148750

 

[Talltim]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/18/via-train-and-ottawa-city-bus-collide-reports-of-multiple-fatalities/

[Mike Boucher]

Bad news just keeps on coming in

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24148750

 

CNN is reporting 6 dead, including the bus driver, 30 hurt, many in critical condition.  There are comments on the CNN article that say the crossing gates were down, and the bus drove into the side of the train, with passengers yelling at the driver to stop.

 

The train derailed, but stayed upright, shortly after the collision.  No one on the train reported hurt.

 

I feel horrible for the engineer.

[Ozexpatriate]

A sad year for Canadian rail transport certainly.

 

CNN is reporting 6 dead, including the bus driver, 30 hurt, many in critical condition.  There are comments on the CNN article that say the crossing gates were down, and the bus drove into the side of the train, with passengers yelling at the driver to stop.

In the CNN story there were pictures of the crossing (the second last picture as I write). 

 

There appeared to be 'boom gates' on the right hand side of the bus, where you would expect them in North America. After the accident they were up.

 

It's hard to imagine that if they were down, how the bus would have not hit them, (not damaged them) and then get hit by the train if they were operating correctly.  (It's difficult to understand the angles involved. The road does not appear to be orthogonal with the railway.)

 

The location is a tricky arrangement with a divided highway crossing the railway at an angle. There's (sadly) almost enough road after the crossing gates to accommodate a bus.

 

EDIT: Wrong location.

[Adrian Wintle]

If you look at the pictures in the National Post article, the bus hit the side of the loco near the front (impact damage is on the cabside of the loco). It broke the half-barrier (the arm is lying in the roadway beside the bus) before doing so. The barrier on the right hand side of the bus is in the up position (where it would have returned after the train cleared the crossing), but is missing its arm. In British terms this would be an AHB crossing, with the train striking in about 28s at line speed from the crossing. There is a major road to the right of the busway, and the traffic on that was apparently stopped at the crossing.

 

Note that busses are required to stop and open the front door at level crossings even if the barriers are up, so the bus should have stopped regardless. It was a dedicated busway, which curved from the station (which is just beyond the train) to parallel the major road at the crossing, but I can't believe that the level crossing rules are any different for the bus.

 

Adrian

[Adrian Wintle]

In the CNN story there were pictures of the crossing (the second last picture as I write). 

 

There appeared to be 'boom gates' on the right hand side of the bus, where you would expect them in North America. After the accident they were up.a bus.

 

In the shot from the left side of the bus, the crossing arm you are seeing is the one for the road. The one for the busway is lying beside the bus. There are two separate level crossings there.

 

Adrian

[Gerald Henriksen]

A sad year for Canadian rail transport certainly.

 

In the CNN story there were pictures of the crossing (the second last picture as I write). 

 

There appeared to be 'boom gates' on the right hand side of the bus, where you would expect them in North America. After the accident they were up.

 

It's hard to imagine that if they were down, how the bus would have not hit them, (not damaged them) and then get hit by the train if they were operating correctly.  (It's difficult to understand the angles involved. The road does not appear to be orthogonal with the railway.)

 

The location is a tricky arrangement with a divided highway crossing the railway at an angle. There's (sadly) almost enough road after the crossing gates to accommodate a bus.

 

You have looked at the wrong end of the station.  The crossing where this occurred is east of the station, where there is a dedicated busway running parallel to the road.  The crossing gates seen in the up position on the other side of the bus are likely the road crossing arms, not the busway arm.

[Gerald Henriksen]

The TSB has started posting pictures to their Flickr account:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsbcanada

[Adrian Wintle]

You have looked at the wrong end of the station.  The crossing where this occurred is east of the station, where there is a dedicated busway running parallel to the road.  The crossing gates seen in the up position on the other side of the bus are likely the road crossing arms, not the busway arm.

 

Here https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Woodroffe+Avenue+and+Fallowfield+Road+ottawa,+ontario&hl=en&ll=45.302844,-75.73383&spn=0.000004,0.002588&sll=45.31308,-122.774823&sspn=0.119269,0.130806&hnear=Woodroffe+Ave+%26+Fallowfield+Rd,+Ottawa,+Ottawa+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&t=h&layer=c&cbll=45.302844,-75.73383&panoid=ksqJly_W3M0M8az7qJalqQ&cbp=12,283.83,,0,-12.39&z=19

[Ozexpatriate]

I had the wrong intersection. This is the correct one.

 

The broken boom gate is on the ground in the CNN pictures. It is clear that the bus ran right through the gate.

[dave1905]

Looks like the derailed equipment hit the end of the siding and split the switch with the rear of the lead unit and the lead coach heading down the siding and the leading engine truck going down the main.

[steve1]

Heart attack or similar by the driver?

 

steve

[dibber25]

Coincidence of course, but the second grade crossing accident involving 915 in two years. Most Canadian buses seem to have a warning on the back "This vehicle stops at all grade crossings". Amazing how many media reports open with "Train hits bus" or words to that effect, despite the story then saying that the bus hit the train. Impact is on the ICLE's side of the cab - thoughts are with the crew and the on train staff.

CHRIS LEIGH

[br2975]

I'm concerned at the amount of speculation posted here, especially when some folk even have the location wrong.

.

Is this the time and place, so soon after such a tragedy ?

.

This is but a personal opinion.

 

Brian R

[sjgardiner]

Note that busses are required to stop and open the front door at level crossings even if the barriers are up, so the bus should have stopped regardless. It was a dedicated busway, which curved from the station (which is just beyond the train) to parallel the major road at the crossing, but I can't believe that the level crossing rules are any different for the bus.

 

Adrian

 

Adrian,

 

The Highway Traffic Act in Ontario does not require buses to stop at guarded railway crossings unless the bus in question is a school bus.  The operators may have their own policies, and i agree that it is standard practice in my experience for almost every bus operator i have ever seen, but the HTA does not require it:

 

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90h08_f.htm#s174s1

 

Railway crossings

Public vehicles required to stop

74.  (1)  The driver of a public vehicle upon approaching on a highway a railway crossing that is not protected by gates or railway crossing signal lights, unless otherwise directed by a flagman, shall,

(a) stop the vehicle not less than 5 metres from the nearest rail of the railway;

(b )look in both directions along the railway track;

(c ) open a door of the vehicle and listen to determine if any train is approaching;

(d) when it is safe to do so, cross the railway track in a gear that will not need to be changed while crossing the track; and

(e) not change gears while crossing the railway track. 1997, c. 12, s. 13.

School buses required to stop

(2)  The driver of a school bus, within the meaning of section 175, upon approaching on a highway a railway crossing, whether or not it is protected by gates or railway crossing signal lights, unless otherwise directed by a flagman, shall,

(a) stop the school bus not less than 5 metres from the nearest rail of the railway;

(b ) look in both directions along the railway track;

(c ) open a door of the school bus and listen to determine if any train is approaching;

(d) when it is safe to do so, cross the railway track in a gear that will not need to be changed while crossing the track; and

(e) not change gears while crossing the railway track. 1997, c. 12, s. 13.

 

I'm concerned at the amount of speculation posted here, especially when some folk even have the location wrong.

.

Is this the time and place, so soon after such a tragedy ?

.

This is but a personal opinion.

 

Brian R

 

I agree, there seems to be an awful lot of uninformed speculation going on in this thread.  It would be best if we could wait till we have some more information, unfortunately, what the Driver was seeing/thinking will likely never be known as he is being reported amongst the six fatalities from the accident this morning.

 

-Stephen

[Ozexpatriate]

CNN:

"Everyone shouted, 'Stop! Stop! Stop!,' and then, as I looked up the bus (hit) the gate," an emotional Guilbeault told reporters as she held her young son, echoing other passengers on the bus.

[pH]

TSB have confirmed that all rail warning and protection systems worked correctly before the collision. Horn was not sounded because of a local bylaw banning railway horns between 8 p.m. and noon. TSB have not said anything yet about the bus, and have said it is likely to be some time before they do so - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-level-crossing-gate-down-25-seconds-before-crash-1.1861628

[Adrian Wintle]

There was an update on the status of the investigation today:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-bus-train-crash-speed-video-screen-factor-into-investigation-1.2775633

 

Adrian

[Andy Reichert]

I don't have modern car with a touch screen in the lower centre dashboard. But recently struggled to operate a non-intuitive one on a Prius that did. Required me to keep looking down at  the thing.  Hopefully they will only be temporary fad.

[pH]

Report of TSB investigation published - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/safety-board-finds-multiple-factors-led-to-deadly-ottawa-bus-train-crash/article27560373/

 

Edit to add link to actual report - http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2013/r13t0192/r13t0192.asp

[dibber25]

As so often with such accidents, no one clear cause but a combination of comparatively minor factors coming together all at once. I do wonder about the apparently substantial number of standees on the bus - and on the top deck, too. I seem to recall from the dim, distant days when I used buses in the UK that no more than 5 standees were allowed and only on the lower deck - and on vehicles that were much slower, too. And there were warnings about not speaking to the driver while he is driving. Having once been thrown down the aisle of a French bus due to sudden braking, I have long felt that seat belts would be a good idea. (CJL)

[pH]

I do wonder about the apparently substantial number of standees on the bus - and on the top deck, too. I seem to recall from the dim, distant days when I used buses in the UK that no more than 5 standees were allowed and only on the lower deck - and on vehicles that were much slower, too.

 

That was one of the distractions mentioned - the driver was trying to communicate to the single person standing on the top deck that he wasn't supposed to be doing that.

 

Number of standing passengers on a bus in the UK could vary by type of bus. I don't know what the regulations allow now.

 

There do not appear to be any limits on the number of standing passengers on buses here in Metro Vancouver. If you can get on and stay behind the red line on the floor, you're OK. I was once on a loaded, with standing passengers, rush-hour bus which was flagged down by the driver of another bus which had broken down. That one had been loaded to standing as well. Every single person from the broken down bus managed to get on to ours (not all behind the line, though).

[jaym481]

London busses prohibit standing on the upper deck, but lower deck standees seem to be limited only by physical space.

[mikjd]

Modern rail transit/metro vehicles have more and more standing room and less seating ........

 

Mick.

[stewartingram]

London busses prohibit standing on the upper deck, but lower deck standees seem to be limited only by physical space.

Every bus in the UK displays a notice that states carrying capacity. London buses usually have them on the side of the staircase; capacity can vary if a wheelchair takes space otherwise used by standing passengers.

 

Stewart