Signalling Little Turnton

[18B]

Hi,

 

attached is the plan for the signalling of little Turnton, (Anyone know how to get it into the post)

 

Hopefuly it shouldn;t need to mnay alterations??

 

Littleton%20Signalling1.doc

[The Stationmaster]

Hi,

 

attached is the plan for the signalling of little Turnton, (Anyone know how to get it into the post)

 

Hopefuly it shouldn;t need to mnay alterations??

 

Littleton%20Signalling1.doc

 

 

You have transposed Lever No.s 7 & 8 - and that's the biggest error I can find . I wonder about the numbering of 4 & 6 as the usual way would be two work the two point ends off the same lever and (unless you are using an economical FPL?) provide a separate lever for the FPL.

 

Rather nice little job tho'

[18B]

You have transposed Lever No.s 7 & 8 - and that's the biggest error I can find . I wonder about the numbering of 4 & 6 as the usual way would be two work the two point ends off the same lever and (unless you are using an economical FPL?) provide a separate lever for the FPL.

 

Rather nice little job tho'

 

 

Hi, yep, 7 and 8 are listed the wrong way round, Oooooops,

 

Thought about the one point lever doing both as they will always work together, perhaps one point lever for both ends and one FPL lever for both ends?

 

Also missing a white diamond off of one of the signals, and I suppose technically the ground disc ought to have a white diamond as well (on the diagram at least).

[The Stationmaster]

Hi, yep, 7 and 8 are listed the wrong way round, Oooooops,

 

Thought about the one point lever doing both as they will always work together, perhaps one point lever for both ends and one FPL lever for both ends?

 

Also missing a white diamond off of one of the signals, and I suppose technically the ground disc ought to have a white diamond as well (on the diagram at least).

 

 

You only need an FPL on the running (main) line end, no need for one on the siding end (it not being a passenger line).

 

The convention of drawing 'track circuit diamonds' on diagrams varied between the BR Regions with some not showing them at all. In any event if you have a co-located shunt signal/disc the diamond technically applies 'at the signal' and in such a case 'the signal' is the running signal - you can't apply two different applications of the Rules to the same thing in those circumstances.

[18B]

You only need an FPL on the running (main) line end, no need for one on the siding end (it not being a passenger line).

 

The convention of drawing 'track circuit diamonds' on diagrams varied between the BR Regions with some not showing them at all. In any event if you have a co-located shunt signal/disc the diamond technically applies 'at the signal' and in such a case 'the signal' is the running signal - you can't apply two different applications of the Rules to the same thing in those circumstances.

 

I wasn't sure about the requirement for the FPL on the siding, so just the one double ended point lever and one FPL, this is sounding more accurate now,

 

Was going to put the ground disc (on the ground) at the side of the mainline signal.

[The Stationmaster]

I wasn't sure about the requirement for the FPL on the siding, so just the one double ended point lever and one FPL, this is sounding more accurate now,

 

Was going to put the ground disc (on the ground) at the side of the mainline signal.

 

Perfectly ok to put the ground disc on the ground next to the running signal - that still counts as co-located.

 

Looks like you're there now B)

[18B]

Thanks Mike,

 

Only thing is now, the signal box I origionally bought isn;t now big enough for tat many levers,

 

More of a crossing box than an actualy box.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike,

 

Only thing is now, the signal box I origionally bought isn;t now big enough for tat many levers,

 

More of a crossing box than an actualy box.

You'd be surprised what you could get in, this one has a 12 lever frame.

[18B]

The revised signal layout

 

just a 12 lever frame required.

 

Littleton Signalling.doc

[The Stationmaster]

The revosed signal layout

 

just a 12 lever frame required.

 

Littleton Signalling.doc

 

It simply can't get any better

[28XX]

Lever 12 might be a gate-release lever, the actual movement of the gates done by a 'ships wheel'

[18B]

Lever 12 might be a gate-release lever, the actual movement of the gates done by a 'ships wheel'

 

 

Indeed, however was going on my limited experience, whereby in Midland boxes at least there tended to be three levers, (which seemed abit of an over kill for the signaller) one released the actual crossing gates to hich the ships wheels would then open them and two levers, one for each wicket gate.

 

Might not actually model the wiket gates as there isn't much room, so perhaps the one lever for the crossing gates would suffice. I find it rather amazing but there are still crossings on the system open and closed by hand, but all of the local examples I know of are crossing boxes, are there any examples in relatively recent times of block post boxes opening/closing gates by hand?

 

If (shouldn't that be when? editor) I get it finished (come the magical) and should it get invited to an exhibition I'd like to include a poster of the signalling side with an example of the signal box diagram.

 

 

thanks for everyones help.

[The Stationmaster]

Indeed, however was going on my limited experience, whereby in Midland boxes at least there tended to be three levers, (which seemed abit of an over kill for the signaller) one released the actual crossing gates to hich the ships wheels would then open them and two levers, one for each wicket gate.

 

Might not actually model the wiket gates as there isn't much room, so perhaps the one lever for the crossing gates would suffice. I find it rather amazing but there are still crossings on the system open and closed by hand, but all of the local examples I know of are crossing boxes, are there any examples in relatively recent times of block post boxes opening/closing gates by hand?

 

 

Yes - well in the early/mid 1990s anyway, and the Signalman had to go out and work the gates himself.

 

As far as levers are concerned you can make it as simple or complex as you like. Three lever arrangements were quite common - Up Wickets, Down Wickets, and Gate Lock, plus a gate wheel. The opposite extreme is no wicket gates and just a gate lock for hand worked gates = one lever.

[MacRat]

It simply can't get any better

 

Hello

 

I've followed this thread and there is one thing that's not clear for me. The position of the Home (9) is rather close to the points. Wouldn't any shunting of the siding allongside the platform be "outside home"?

Or would shunting only happen if the line is already signaled to the next box?

 

Mac

[18B]

Hi Mac,

 

thanks for your reply,

 

I'm sure some more knowledgable expert will expand upon this, however my understanding is that no.9 is the Section signal to the next box, and between no10. the Up Home and No.9 are the station limits, should shunting need to go passed no9. then 3-3-2 (shunting into forward section), will be sent to the next box, The distance however should hb long ebnough to take the couple of wagons required for the sidings.

 

However this maintly relatest to normal two line working,

 

Given that the line is a single line, if we assume the the line is worked by token then in order to shunt into the section it could be done as 5-2 (token removed) the train can then shunt passed No9 into the next section and then 2-5 to put the token back in. Or something like that,

[MacRat]

That's what I've assumed, the signalman has to notify the next box. Thank you very much for the clarification.

 

Cheers

Mac

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mac,

 

thanks for your reply,

 

I'm sure some more knowledgable expert will expand upon this, however my understanding is that no.9 is the Section signal to the next box, and between no10. the Up Home and No.9 are the station limits, should shunting need to go passed no9. then 3-3-2 (shunting into forward section), will be sent to the next box, The distance however should hb long ebnough to take the couple of wagons required for the sidings.

 

However this maintly relatest to normal two line working,

 

Given that the line is a single line, if we assume the the line is worked by token then in order to shunt into the section it could be done as 5-2 (token removed) the train can then shunt passed No9 into the next section and then 2-5 to put the token back in. Or something like that,

 

That is of course assuming that the 'signal box' is a block post, and it wouldn't necessarily have to be one.

 

But if it is a block post things are very simple indeed because unless the train is so long that it needs to pass the Starting Signal in order to shunt the siding then it will be doing the shunt in Station Limits. And the Driver might in any case have already received the token for the section in advance.

[MacRat]

Hi

 

Only one further question, I hope. Do the station limits depend on the direction of travel or is it just between signal 8 and 3 for Little Turnton, independent of the direction? In some cases it might be possible to leave a few wagons "backwards" of signal 2 but still before signal 8 to perform the shunting tasks. In this case a station limit between 8 and 3 might help?

 

Sorry for hijacking, but shunting on single lines is something I didn't really understand. I think, I got the basics for double line signaling, but all these little details...

 

Thanks

Mac

[The Stationmaster]

Hi

 

Only one further question, I hope. Do the station limits depend on the direction of travel or is it just between signal 8 and 3 for Little Turnton, independent of the direction? In some cases it might be possible to leave a few wagons "backwards" of signal 2 but still before signal 8 to perform the shunting tasks. In this case a station limit between 8 and 3 might help?

 

Sorry for hijacking, but shunting on single lines is something I didn't really understand. I think, I got the basics for double line signaling, but all these little details...

 

Thanks

Mac

 

It can get a little bit complicated because of the way signals do or don't overlap in opposite directions. On a double line - as you appreciate - Station Limits extends from the rearmost Home Signal to the most advanced Starting Signal (i.e. the Section Signal). Exactly the same principle applies on a single line which in this case means Station Limits overlay each other and extend from signal 8 to signal 9 in one direction and from 2 to 3 in the other direction which results in Station Limits extending all the way from one Starting Signal to the other.

 

Hope that makes it a bit clearer but the easiest way to think of it is always apply the basic principle of outermost Home Signal to Section Signal and if one happens to overlay the other on a single line you've got a sort of bonus B)

[StaffsOatcake]

Having looked the plan for a while an something didn't quite seem right.

 

It will definitely need an FPL unless a motor or economical point, but the point could be a 'double ender' and operate both the point and catch point at the same time using one lever. An FPL is not required for the catch point.

 

It took me ages to work out a possible problem. The section Down section from Distant 1 to Home 2 has an over lap of sections from Signal 9. The section I believe should end before Signal 9 not after it. You will need to move signal 2 back a bit. Unless there are specific rules relating to the use of those signals and sidings for that box.

 

The area between signals 9 and 3 would be classified as station limits and the section towards 2 intrudes into that area and so needs to stop before the section signal 9

 

The white diamonds indicate track circuiting and therefore the signalman will know that the train is on that section of track.

 

Hope it helps

[18B]

A change of plan

 

Bought two Berko colour lights. operating them will add a little more fun and interest to the layout.

 

So the Homes and Starters will be replaced by Home/Starters with the Distants becoming Fixed Distants (off stage).

 

Really wanted Semaphores but they proved a little fidly to make operational.

[The Stationmaster]

Having looked the plan for a while an something didn't quite seem right.

 

It will definitely need an FPL unless a motor or economical point, but the point could be a 'double ender' and operate both the point and catch point at the same time using one lever. An FPL is not required for the catch point.

 

We've Been there already - look at the later drawing which clearly shows that to have been sorted

 

It took me ages to work out a possible problem. The section Down section from Distant 1 to Home 2 has an over lap of sections from Signal 9. The section I believe should end before Signal 9 not after it. You will need to move signal 2 back a bit. Unless there are specific rules relating to the use of those signals and sidings for that box.

 

I have only spent about the best part of 40 years involved with railway signalling and Rules & Regs but I am prepared to admit that I definitely don't know everything, and I'm always ready to learn but I simply can't understand what you are getting at. The situation portrayed is an intermediate one on a single line with no passing loop and it is as near inevitable as makes no difference that something will overlay something else in such a situation - be it block sections, Clearing Points or Station Limits. That is why the basic signalling Regulations have long made provison for exactly such a situation for about as long as they have existed (the oldest example I have immediately to hand is dated 1866).

 

 

The area between signals 9 and 3 would be classified as station limits and the section towards 2 intrudes into that area and so needs to stop before the section signal 9

 

 

Why? The block section does indeed overlay Station Limits (well vice versa tp be precise) but that is basically irrelevant in this instance. As far as shunting is concerned it either takes place in Station Limits or it also extends, as the Regulations can provide, into the forward section. Simples

[The Stationmaster]

A change of plan

 

Bought two Berko colour lights. operating them will add a little more fun and interest to the layout.

 

So the Homes and Starters will be replaced by Home/Starters with the Distants becoming Fixed Distants (off stage).

 

Really wanted Semaphores but they proved a little fidly to make operational.

 

Two signals will now be ample then - one protecting the points in each direction; much simpler these electrickery signals can be

[beast66606]

Two signals will now be ample then - one protecting the points in each direction; much simpler these electrickery signals can be

 

Make it even simpler, fit a ground frame, hand worked crossing and remove all the signals

 

And use the old box as a ticket office.

[18B]

But then I wouldn;t get to play at the day job at home and switch me red light to green and vice verca

 

On such a small layout, the signals will make another little bit of operational interst and may be, should it ever go to an exhibition, a little bit more interest for the public.