Fowler 4Fs - which is which?

[Alister_G]

Hi, I know there are lots of threads about 4Fs, but this is a specific question.

 

I am modelling Bakewell in the Peak District, in the early BR period, and therefore my Goods Loco stock will mostly be representative of those engines allocated to Rowsley 17D.

 

I have researched and found a fair amount of information, so I know that there were a total of 19 4Fs allocated to Rowsley between 1948 and 1956, 3 of which carried "43" numbers: 43918, 43925 and 43929, which are described as Midland Railway Class 3835. The other 16 all have "44" numbers ranging from 44017 to 44588 (though not in sequence) and are simply described as Fowler 4F.

 

My question is this: I have two Airfix 4Fs, which are Left-hand drive. If I number them as two of the "43" locomotives, would that be correct, or were some of the earlier Midland engines Right-hand drive?

 

And similarly, I have a Bachmann 4F, which is Right-hand drive, so would I be able to renumber that as any of the "44" locomotives, or were some Left-hand and some Right-hand?

 

As yet, I haven't been able to find a definitive list of which 4Fs were which "handed" drive.

 

Please can anyone help?

 

Thanks,

 

Al.

[buffalo]

Well, there is a topic on this model and the answer is probably in there somewhere. Briefly, though, the MR builds (LMS nos 3835-4026) and the Somerset & Dorset "Armstrongs" (4557-4561) were right hand drive. The LMS continued to build them like this until 1925/6 (nos 4027-4206 and 4302-4311), the rest (4207-4301, 4312-4556 and the much later 4562-4606) were left hand drive.

 

There are other detail diffrences in cabside beading, tenders, and boiler fittings through time.

 

Nick

[Alister_G]

Hi Nick, Thanks very much.

 

Typically, having posted the question, I found the answer myself.

 

According to the Brassmasters information sheet here:  http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/Downloads/4F%20Prototype%20Information.pdf Their information tallies more or less with what you said:

 

"No.s 3835 - 4206, 4302 - 4311 and 4557 - 4561 were right hand drive with the reversing lever on this side; the remainder were left hand drive."

 

Thanks very much for answering

 

Al

 

Edit: And I've totally got it wrong - the Right-hand drive are the earlier Midland ones, so the Bachmann should be one of the 43s, and the Airfix should be the later LMS ones DUH!

[The Stationmaster]

Not really my Railway but a bit of information from Brian Haresnape's excellent series -

 

3835 - 4026 were Midland Railway locos built in 6 batches at Derby plus one from an outside contractor and all were right hand dive.  The5 S&DJtR locos were similar but when taken over by the LMS were numbered 4557 -4561.

 

The initial LMS built locos were also right hand drive,  that covers 4027 - 4206 but from 4207 onwards they were all bult with left hand drive (4207 - 4556 built under Fowler's regime and 4563 - 4606 built under Stanier.

 

Some Midland built engines had plain coupling rods but all the Fowler period LMS built engines seem to have fluted rods (open to correction), the Stanier period engines all had plain coupling rods, Stanier pattern chimneys, and were built without piston tail rod guides although these were removed from (many/all??) earlier engines over the years.

 

Tender types varied a bit over the years - ideally a dated photo would help in that respect. Incidentally all the LMS built engines had screw couplings

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[Alister_G]

Thanks very much Mike, much appreciated.

[buffalo]

...from 4207 onwards they were all bult with left hand drive (4207 - 4556 built under Fowler's regime and 4563 - 4606 built under Stanier...

Not quite, Mike. The RHD and LHD lots got a bit mixed at the changeover. 4177-206 were RHD built at St Rollox 1924-5. 4207-301 was the first LHD lot built at Derby 1925-7. However, 4302-11 were the last RHD engines built at Crewe in 1926. The latter should probably have arrived before the Derby engines as they were a lower lot number but they were numbered in arrival sequence.

 

Nick

 

ps source: Essery & Jenkinson, An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, vol 4.

[The Stationmaster]

Not quite, Mike. The RHD and LHD lots got a bit mixed at the changeover. 4177-206 were RHD built at St Rollox 1924-5. 4207-301 was the first LHD lot built at Derby 1925-7. However, 4302-11 were the last RHD engines built at Crewe in 1926. The latter should probably have arrived before the Derby engines as they were a lower lot number but they were numbered in arrival sequence.

 

Nick

 

ps source: Essery & Jenkinson, An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, vol 4.

Thanks Nick - clearly Mr Haresnape didn't check in such detail as after seeing your post I went back and checked his text to make sure I hadn't got it wrong.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Nobody has mentioned splashers so far. all but the last ten Midland locos had beaded splashers, the rest were without beading. Any later replacements were sans beading.

[buffalo]

Nobody has mentioned splashers so far...

Well, you and several others did in the main thread on the Bachmann model

 

I'll suggest to Andy that the topics are merged before we get too much duplication.

 

Nick

[Alister_G]

Nobody has mentioned splashers so far. all but the last ten Midland locos had beaded splashers, the rest were without beading. Any later replacements were sans beading.

 

 

Well, you and several others did in the main thread on the Bachmann model

 

I'll suggest to Andy that the topics are merged before we get too much duplication.

 

Nick

 

To be honest, I wasn't going to open that whole can of worms again, it was just the numbering I wanted some clarification on. If we're going to start discussing the beading on the splashers etc, then the Airfix models are a non-starter anyway, without radical surgery

 

Thanks to all of you for your comments.

 

Al.

[Andy Y]

To be honest, I wasn't going to open that whole can of worms again,

 

 

That's fair enough; to save too much divergence I'll leave this in place but close it off now.

 

Thanks,