Programming Issue with Lenz LH100/LZV100

[Simon G]

At our club layout, we have a DCC combination of a Lenz LH100 controller with a LZV100 Base Station.  A separate programming track exists.  Every time a loco is put onto the programming track to try to either read CVs or re-programme, the system goes into an error mode and the controller locks up, whatever loco is on the programming track.  Sometimes the programming actually works, ie changing a loco address, but often doesnt.  The only way to get out of the error mode is turn turn all the power off to reset the controller etc.

 

I did wonder if there was an issue with the programming track, so I made a new one and tried that, but the problem remained.  There is a small 'click' sound inside the LZV100 then the error light on the LZV100 blinks at about 1 time per second.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts as to the problem, or maybe has had a similar issue?

[kevpeo]

Hi Simon. What happens if you try to readback values with nothing sat on the program track. You would normally get an 'error 02' message. kev.

[RFS]

Is the programming track fully separate from the main track - ie not a siding with a DPDT switch for example?

 

What happens if you disconnect track power (J,K) terminals and then try to use the programming track?

 

It's possible the LZV100 could have developed a fault so you could try talking to Anthony at A & H Models, the Lenz distributor.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I suspect there is a relay of some sort in the command station that physically disconnects power from the track outputs and connects the programme outputs as I hear a distinct click every time when selecting and leaving programming mode. Once, with the temperature below zero (the layout was than in an unheated building, and at the time it had both no insulation and a hole in the wall and winter was distinctly with us) the command station wouldn't disengage from programme mode, and a power off, power on, was necessary to restore track supply.

 

My own experience insists that the track connections don't matter. The layout I converted to DCC was a three cab common return wired switched section set up. A DC controller remains on cab 1 input, the command station is on cab 2, programme track on cab 3. Any section could be switched to cab 3 and act as the programme track. Worked perfectly, never gave it a second thought when I added the DCC system, and quite often had DC running on one layout circuit while using a section elsewhere as the DCC programme track. All very handy for test running chassis on DC, ahead of decoder fitting and programmme track address change to test the install.

 

One does have to be careful in one respect of course, guess who readdressed about fifteen locos all the same on one occasion?

[Suzie]

Sounds a bit scary being able to just switch large areas of the layout to program track. I trust it is not a common return layout, the Lenz will not like having the program track connected to the common return.

[Simon G]

Hi Simon. What happens if you try to readback values with nothing sat on the program track. You would normally get an 'error 02' message. kev.

I havent tried that!  I am back at the club on Monday evening so will try it then.

 

Is the programming track fully separate from the main track - ie not a siding with a DPDT switch for example?

 

What happens if you disconnect track power (J,K) terminals and then try to use the programming track?

 

It's possible the LZV100 could have developed a fault so you could try talking to Anthony at A & H Models, the Lenz distributor.

Yes, the programming track is completely separate - I tested it with a meter just to check.  That was also why I made up a new piece of programming track, just to make sure it was 100% separate from the main track. 

 

I did wonder if there was a fault somewhere, so I may contact A&H Models (thanks for the suggestion!), if I cannot sort it through this forum.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Sounds a bit scary being able to just switch large areas of the layout to program track. I trust it is not a common return layout, the Lenz will not like having the program track connected to the common return.

It is a common return layout! Works perfectly. As described above I just connected the DCC system track power outputs and the program track outputs on what were cab 2 and 3 connections on an existing common return wired cab control sectioned DC layout. The electron knows where it is going. The operator also has to know what he is doing when it comes to programming: being a bear of simple brain I now habitually use a single small section for programming, very easy to see that only the target decoder is going to get the program signal.

 

There is of course an unbreakable law for common return to work: everything simultaneously in circuit on the common return has to be on a separate transformer winding. That the common return wired set up works implies that the Lenz command station (naturally powered from a single transformer) is internally switched to have only one or the other of the track power or program outputs live. 

 

On the couple of occasions when I have had the chance to trouble shoot a common return set up with some 'trouble': sure enough there was a dodge, 'auxiliary' outputs on transformer controller gear seem to pose an irresistible temptation...

[Suzie]

If you have common return you will need to connect the common return to one of the track feed wires (J or K), so what do you do with the programming outputs P and Q, leave one unconnected or connect it to J or K with the common return? Either case I would be a bit worried unless I knew what was going on in the LZV100!

[Phil S]

As Suzie has said: using 'common return' for normal operation wthin the JK connections is not a problem - but having ANY connection to the programming track, in commonm is defeating the whole point of the isolating relay in trying to achieve COMPLETE separation.

I assume that when you said you set up a separate programming track, it was not still connected in any way to the existing wiring !

(In what mode was the controller when you made your meter-test of isolation? - was it relevant to programming mode?)

[RFS]

I use the same system on my home layout, and wired a program track thru a DPDT switch as advised in some books.

This gave me constant errors, but did still alter some of the programming i was doing even tho error 02 was flashing.  So i removed the switch, and program only whilst nothing else is moving on the layout.

I now have no problems and successful programming 100% of the time ( touch wood!) and no error 2.

Hope that helps

Bob

If you've wired a piece of track (eg a siding) via a DPDT switch correctly, with IRJs on both rails at the entrance, then you should have no problem at all.  This is how I've done it for many years. The Lenz itself has in-built protection against feeding track power into the programming track (eg if you drive a loco on to it having not switched the DPDT switch to track power first).

 

As for the Error 02, this occurs when the Lenz cannot read back CV values from the decoder.  Some entry-level decoders do not support read-back of CV values so you get an Error 02 even if the CV has been set correctly. That's because the Lenz always verifies the update by trying to read back the changed CV.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If you have common return you will need to connect the common return to one of the track feed wires (J or K), so what do you do with the programming outputs P and Q, leave one unconnected or connect it to J or K with the common return? Either case I would be a bit worried unless I knew what was going on in the LZV100!

Well, having at last remembered to inspect the installation, it seems I connected K from track power outputs and P from the programme outputs to the common return. Has worked reliably from that day - over ten years ago -  to this. The relay isolation (that is what I guess one hears as the click from the command station when both entering and leaving programme mode) is presumably both poles for track power and programme outputs. 'It works' is enough for this simpleton.

 

The one programming trouble I have had has been in Programming on Main (PoM) mode. Nowhere in the manual did it say that this cannot be performed with other locos running on DCC. But if you do that the decoder addressed doesn't necessarily get the CV value change intended. So now I stop everything before a PoM.

[tractor_37260]

If you've wired a piece of track (eg a siding) via a DPDT switch correctly, with IRJs on both rails at the entrance, then you should have no problem at all.  This is how I've done it for many years. The Lenz itself has in-built protection against feeding track power into the programming track (eg if you drive a loco on to it having not switched the DPDT switch to track power first).

 

As for the Error 02, this occurs when the Lenz cannot read back CV values from the decoder.  Some entry-level decoders do not support read-back of CV values so you get an Error 02 even if the CV has been set correctly. That's because the Lenz always verifies the update by trying to read back the changed CV.

I also use a DPDT (centre-off switch) between my main layout and programming track outputs with a Lenz Set 100. Never had any problems at all over the last 7+ years. The centre-off switch option helps any stay alive capacitors drain etc, prior to switching to the programming track - especially helpful when changing over sound sets on Zimo sound decoders. This can also be done on POM , but it's sometimes not 100% successful, unlike the prog track. POM is very useful for setting lighting/sound volume outputs etc  - as the changes are immediately visable/audible.

[Crosland]

The one programming trouble I have had has been in Programming on Main (PoM) mode. Nowhere in the manual did it say that this cannot be performed with other locos running on DCC. But if you do that the decoder addressed doesn't necessarily get the CV value change intended. So now I stop everything before a PoM.

There's nothing about DCC that prevents it.

 

Was the CV corrupted or just not changed at all? Reliable failure or intermittent.

 

Was the loco being programmed moving? It could be poor pickup meaning it misses the odd programming packet but receives enough normal packets to run.

 

The other possibility is a poor signal causing the odd packet to be missed. Do you have bus filters (also caled a terminator) fitted? Is the wriring adequate? Live- or insul-frog points?

 

Remove or stop the other locos one by one and see if the problem is related to one particular loco or the number of locos running.

 

Andrew

[silverlink]

Hi Simon,

Over the past five years of using the Lenz 100 system I've been very lucky in having everything working really well, yes I've had the odd problem which usually turns out to be a loose wire. With regards the programme track I've encountered Error 2 a few times, main reason dirty track, not that it was really dirty but a quick clean with a track rubber usually gets it all working. Also its vital that your loco wheels are also nice and clean. With close on 130 locos in use on my exhibition layout I have had one or two dodgy decoders but now if not sound I only use Lenz Standard+ which have all been really good.

I am slightly concerned at your mixture of analogue & DCC together as all information I've read says 'do not mix' . As has been suggested already I would disconnect the Lenz completely from your track and then try the programme track (after a quick clean) on its own. When reading decoders or entering new information your loco should 'ack' as it is known which means the loco should move a fraction on the programme track.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ian    

[Simon G]

Hi Simon,

Over the past five years of using the Lenz 100 system I've been very lucky in having everything working really well, yes I've had the odd problem which usually turns out to be a loose wire. With regards the programme track I've encountered Error 2 a few times, main reason dirty track, not that it was really dirty but a quick clean with a track rubber usually gets it all working. Also its vital that your loco wheels are also nice and clean. With close on 130 locos in use on my exhibition layout I have had one or two dodgy decoders but now if not sound I only use Lenz Standard+ which have all been really good.

I am slightly concerned at your mixture of analogue & DCC together as all information I've read says 'do not mix' . As has been suggested already I would disconnect the Lenz completely from your track and then try the programme track (after a quick clean) on its own. When reading decoders or entering new information your loco should 'ack' as it is known which means the loco should move a fraction on the programme track.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ian    

Thanks Ian (and everyone else!).  I tried the unit again tonight with all track disconnected (both main and programming), and the unit again went into fault after the small 'click'.  It seems to me that earlier suggestions of a fault in the unit are probably correct.

[Simon G]

An update on the cause of our problems!  As advised, I sent the LH100 and LZV100 to A&H models, who replaced the insides of the LZV100 and returned it very quickly.  Unfortunately although it worked OK for them, it didn't for me!  After a few more tests etc, it went back again, and this time they found a fault in the LH100 hand held controller - apparently a crack in the board right by one of the chips.  Handset swapped, and we now have a perfectly working system!  Many thanks to A&H Models for their quick and excellent service.