Hermann Goring?s Model Train Layout

[jjb1970]

Speer was almost certainly the most intelligent and capable of the senior Nazi's and I believe his remorse was genuine. I also believe that his remorse was self serving and that he manipulated opinion very successfully. I can accept he may have been ignorant of the extermination camps and the excesses of the einsatzgruppen but it is hardly credible to imagine he was ignorant of how his labour force was acquired, conditions in forced labour camps and the activities of the regime in general. Yet he did a good job of being very apologetic about it all on the proviso that he didn't know. I do believe that of the senior Nazi's he retained a moral compass and did have genuine feelings but that is not the same as saying he was ignorant of what was happening around him or that he remained aloof from the crimes of the regime.

Speer is probably the exemplar of the supposedly good technocrat who was caught up in an evil regime. The generals managed to play the same card very successfully, blaming all the evils on the party and SS and claiming ignorance despite the fact that the army played its part in the extermination policies in the East and was far from the innocent non-observer which was a post war myth.

[Dunsignalling]

Speer was almost certainly the most intelligent and capable of the senior Nazi's and I believe his remorse was genuine. I also believe that his remorse was self serving and that he manipulated opinion very successfully. I can accept he may have been ignorant of the extermination camps and the excesses of the einsatzgruppen but it is hardly credible to imagine he was ignorant of how his labour force was acquired, conditions in forced labour camps and the activities of the regime in general. Yet he did a good job of being very apologetic about it all on the proviso that he didn't know. I do believe that of the senior Nazi's he retained a moral compass and did have genuine feelings but that is not the same as saying he was ignorant of what was happening around him or that he remained aloof from the crimes of the regime.

Speer is probably the exemplar of the supposedly good technocrat who was caught up in an evil regime. The generals managed to play the same card very successfully, blaming all the evils on the party and SS and claiming ignorance despite the fact that the army played its part in the extermination policies in the East and was far from the innocent non-observer which was a post war myth.

Sorry, IMHO, Speer got into it all to fulfil his professional ambitions as an architect from the beginning.

 

It may be that he was already in too deep to do much by the time the full extent of what was going on became apparent but he made his choices early and stuck with them. He might not have been aware of everything, but, in his position, he had to have known about most of it whatever he claimed and however mincing his "apologies"

 

On a lesser scale, that applied to a large proportion of the population which grasped at economic utopia and national pride but got something much different from what most of them were expecting.

 

However, quite a few went on to die of old age decades later with little-diminished, if often unspoken, enthusiasm for the regime even after the whole grisly saga became indisputably known to all.

 

John

Edited December 7, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Steamysandy]

If you're interested in seeing the Nazi hierarchy and trains (1-1 scale)I have dvds from Eisenbahn Lurker which show Hitler at the 1935 Centenary of Railways parade.

For this they built a full scale working replica of Der Adler the first loco to run in Germany which was built by Stephenson's of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and shipped to Nurnburg in kit form.This replica still exists albeit much rebuilt after the Nurnburg fire of 2005.

The parade started with TEN Pacific's coupled together running light engine past the podium with Hitler on it the lead Engine also still exists in much rebuilt form having also survived the fire.Its 01-150 and regularly hauls steam specials

Film also exists of Hitler arriving back in Berlin from Paris with two Streamlined Pacific's leading the train and Molotov's arrival from Moscow in Berlin again behind a Streamlined pacific

[burgundy]

For a fascinating perspective of Goering and other immediate post war experiences in Germany, read "Wings on my Sleeve" which is the autobiography of Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown RN.

Having been deported from Germany by the SS at the outbreak of war (not realising that he was in the RAFVR), he had an astonishing career in naval aviation, both during the war and after. His fluency in German enabled him to test fly almost all of the experimental German aircraft and also to interrogate Goering, of whom he commented "I began to feel a likeable charisma about this rogue", and Hanna Reitsch. He then went on after the war to assist in the foundation of the Marineflieger and to serve as Naval Attache in Germany. 

Well worth reading.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Coppercap]

However, quite a few went on to die of old age decades later with little-diminished, if often unspoken, enthusiasm for the regime even after the whole grisly saga became indisputably known to all.

Unfortunately there are also some who weren't even around at the time it existed who now have enthusiasm for the regime, and what it did, but aren't so quiet about it...and many are not even German.

[Bernard Lamb]

If you're interested in seeing the Nazi hierarchy and trains (1-1 scale)I have dvds from Eisenbahn Lurker which show Hitler at the 1935 Centenary of Railways parade.

For this they built a full scale working replica of Der Adler the first loco to run in Germany which was built by Stephenson's of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and shipped to Nurnburg in kit form.This replica still exists albeit much rebuilt after the Nurnburg fire of 2005.

The parade started with TEN Pacific's coupled together running light engine past the podium with Hitler on it the lead Engine also still exists in much rebuilt form having also survived the fire.Its 01-150 and regularly hauls steam specials

Film also exists of Hitler arriving back in Berlin from Paris with two Streamlined Pacific's leading the train and Molotov's arrival from Moscow in Berlin again behind a Streamlined pacific

But that was all for show. His real train during the war years was usually hauled by a P8 as the larger machines could not use the local lines due to weight restrictions.

Bernard

[pete_mcfarlane]

Unfortunately there are also some who weren't even around at the time it existed who now have enthusiasm for the regime, and what it did, but aren't so quiet about it...and many are not even German.

And weirdly, in quite a lot of cases those non-Germans are from eastern European nations that the original Nazis regarded as inferior. 

 

 

For a fascinating perspective of Goering and other immediate post war experiences in Germany, read "Wings on my Sleeve" which is the autobiography of Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown RN.

Didn't Goering tell brown that the Battle of Britain was a draw? Mind you, the Germans think they won Jutland, so they possibly have different was of assessing 'success' in battles. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by pete_mcfarlane

[John Tomlinson]

As this thread started by considering Goering, I was fascinated to discover many years ago that as a child and young man he was a frequent visitor to Rutland, staying with one of the landowning families in Luffenham. This presumably was in the years prior to the First War.

 

We may also assume that he therefore learned to speak English to some degree, and was acquainted with the Midland Railway and its rolling stock that passed through this village between Leicester and Peterborough.

 

Apparently he intended to make nearby Burghley House, just outside Stamford, his own after the War and German victory, and issued orders that under no circumstances was any bombing to take place in the area.

 

John.

[Bernard Lamb]

As this thread started by considering Goering, I was fascinated to discover many years ago that as a child and young man he was a frequent visitor to Rutland, staying with one of the landowning families in Luffenham. This presumably was in the years prior to the First War.

 

We may also assume that he therefore learned to speak English to some degree,

I posted way back in the early days of this thread about him taking out a subscription to Model Railway News before the war. I presume his English was good enough to be able to order it and to read it.

Bernard

[jjb1970]

It's been said that one of the bigger mistakes the Allies made at Nuremburg was weaning Goering off drugs as by drying him out they restored his intellectual vigour and energy. Which he displayed to good effect in the trial.

[jjb1970]

And weirdly, in quite a lot of cases those non-Germans are from eastern European nations to the original Nazis regarded as inferior. 

 

 

There are some decidedly odd attitudes to Hitler in parts of Asia. There are certain people in countries like Indonesia who see him as a thoroughly good leader on account of him being a strongman and killing lots of Jews while in China you sometimes see him as some sort of fashion statement with locals being completely oblivious to just how offensive people from other parts of the world find something like a pink Hitler.

[Allegheny1600]

That's much as the same as 'fashionistas' over here (in the western world), wearing tee shirts or similar bearing various "cute" or "interesting" Chinese characters when they have absolutely no idea what they mean.

Ignorance is bliss!

 

Before anyone jumps on me, I have been near to Auschwitz, the members of my group who actually visited all came back very depressed. I'd already seen enough of it to know what it might be like and their reaction confirmed that I would have been deeply affected*.

So no way am I denying the holocaust nor the evil the Nazis were guilty of. It's simply that as an observer of recent history, I am more affected by the fact that we (as humans) seem to have such a hard time learning and applying the lessons of history.

It also bemuses me why so much is made of the extermination the enemy (in WW2) of some 6M people when our "Ally", comrade Stalin exterminated some 20M and yet, little said, certainly in our media.

Not to mention Pol Pot, Idi Amin, the Kim 'dynasty' and so many others.

We never learn.

John

 

*an organised cycling tour from Krakau to Budapest, September 1990. Our 'free day' was waiting for our bikes at arrive by road, approximately half our party went to A. the other half explored the city of Krakau.

[The Johnster]

Not that I wish to defend Stalin, who was a monster, but to be fair the 20 million Russian dead was the approximate casualty count of their effort in the 'Great Patriotic War'; you can hardly compare the organised deliberate slaughter as a policy of Jews, Gypsies, Mentally Ill, 'sexually deviant' or other 'undesirables' to the loss of many Russian servicemen and many, many Russian civilians in defence of their country against an aggressive invader.  The USSR suffered the highest number of casualties of any nation in WW2, mostly at the hands of Germans or their allies or war related famine.  

 

Incidentally, the German war dead also amounted to about 6 million, AFAIK the largest proportion of any combatant nation's population; they paid heavily for Hitler's obscene ambition, and some though not all of them deservedly so!

 

We are a long way from model railways here, even Herman's.

[pete_mcfarlane]

you can hardly compare the organised deliberate slaughter as a policy of Jews, Gypsies, Mentally Ill, 'sexually deviant' or other 'undesirables' to the loss of many Russian servicemen and many, many Russian civilians in defence of their country against an aggressive invader.  

 

He wasn't talking about the Soviet dead in WW2. He was talking about stuff like this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Death_toll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea%E2%80%93Baltic_Canal#Working_conditions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan_famine_of_1932%E2%80%931933

 

All of which adds up to a far bigger total than Hitler managed. 

[Guius]

Das is ein gut idea mine cammerade.

 

 That's not to say the forgoing was still very interesting and informative.

Guy

[Steamysandy]

I thoroughly agree!

I had a Fleischmann set up for a few years and really liked it butfinances meant it had to go.

Shame whatever Goering had was destroyed along with a lot more

[Coppercap]

I thoroughly agree!

I had a Fleischmann set up for a few years and really liked it butfinances meant it had to go.

Shame whatever Goering had was destroyed along with a lot more

At least the Allies can't be blamed for it's destruction...

If Goering wasn't going to be able to play with his train set, he was going to make sure no one else was either.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Coppercap

[bertiedog]

I posted way back in the early days of this thread about him taking out a subscription to Model Railway News before the war. I presume his English was good enough to be able to order it and to read it.

Bernard

Yes, he spoke reasonable English, as I had this from one of the interrogating officers, who though retired in the 1970's worked part time as our accountant. Generally  he insisted at the trial on German Translators so there could be no confusion.And, yes Joseph Goebbels was another train enthusiast with a large toy train layout at his Berlin residence.

 

STEPHEN.

Edited December 9, 2017 by bertiedog

[peach james]

The lot of them must have fancied O  oo  or something- for wanting this - https://www.camdenmin.co.uk/collections/digital-books/products/broader-than-broad

 

!  (or is it HO(B)3 ?  

 

(there we go, back to model railways)

[Bernard Lamb]

The lot of them must have fancied O  oo  or something- for wanting this - https://www.camdenmin.co.uk/collections/digital-books/products/broader-than-broad

 

!  (or is it HO(B)3 ?  

 

(there we go, back to model railways)

Which takes us back to Speer who designed the stations for it. I have never seen a model of any of the large gauge machines. Any one know of any?

Bernard

[John Tomlinson]

Which takes us back to Speer who designed the stations for it. I have never seen a model of any of the large gauge machines. Any one know of any?

Bernard

 

Not much of an answer to your question, but I seem to remember something in the Deutsches Museum in Munich, but it is several decades since I visited!

 

Never seen a working model thereof, and as someone who took Eisenbahn Kurier for a long time, which has a regular model section, I can't remember seeing anything in there either.

 

John.

[Bernard Lamb]

Not much of an answer to your question, but I seem to remember something in the Deutsches Museum in Munich, but it is several decades since I visited!

 

Never seen a working model thereof, and as someone who took Eisenbahn Kurier for a long time, which has a regular model section, I can't remember seeing anything in there either.

 

John.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I think that part of the reason is that it is only in relatively recent times that discussion of such topics has  been acceptable.

It was not that long ago when the book was published.

I remember not long after the wall came down being invited to the home of a family who lived near Potsdam. I had known them for many years but had always met them on neutral ground.

They lived in a very nice house sat in a large garden that sloped down to a lake. The conversation turned to how long they had been there and it came out that the grandfather had built the original house in 1937. They assumed that I new just how high up the tree he must have been to have been able to do that. The grandfather was still alive at that time although well into his 90s. Later on viewing the family photo album when the odd railway related photo came to light he talked with some enthusiasm of a British loco he had experience of during the war. He accurately identified a Dean Goods.It took that long before they felt comfortable to talk about past events.

At a memorial service recently the son in law of the family who is a very well known historian, in particular of that period, advised me to listen very carefully to the eulogy. He new that I could relate the dates of where the family were to historical events. SWMBO was amazed when we discussed it later as we were totally unaware of the background of this seemingly very nice and respectable family. With German history it can be quite an eye opener when the odd remark is made and you are able to follow it up. Brexit and the desire to obtain German citizen ship is also throwing up anomalies in status dating back from long forgotten times. Ironically we are finding out in SWMBO's case that being a citizen of the long hated East German regime is now having advantages over having lived in West Germany.

Bernard

[Clearwater]

@Bernard

Reminds me of this book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Nazi-Uncovering-Grandfathers-Secret/dp/0399157018

 

Well worth a read

 

David

[Classsix T]

Incidentally, the German war dead also amounted to about 6 million, AFAIK the largest proportion of any combatant nation's population; they paid heavily for Hitler's obscene ambition, and some though not all of them deservedly so!

Documentary statistics report that Poland earned that grisly title. It is said that nation lost a fifth (20%) of its entire population 39-45.

 

C6T.