GWR Macaw bogie bolster wagons

[velotrain]

I've just bought a pair of Hornby GWR Macaw H bogie bolster wagons, with hopes of converting them to type B or D, to serve as WW1 tank carriers.

 

This page has several photographs of the prototype:

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww1-gwr-macaw.htm 

 

The additional truss-work is extensive, and I'll probably build it up of styrene strip - although, might try my first resin casting after I make the first one.  From what I can see, some of the "flat" truss elements on the B have been replaced by angle iron on the D.

 

I've just noticed that the Hornby bogies have the wrong wheels, and appear to have poor detail - which is no surprise.  I'm also realizing that I'll need some other bits, and since I'm in Boston, U.S., would prefer to source as much as possible from one U.K. shop.  I'll list what I'm interested in, and would appreciate whatever info/leads anyone could provide.  The close-up end photo near the bottom of the linked page is the best reference.

 

Quality trucks of this type with 8-spoke wheels - hopefully near as thin as shown

 

Quality buffers to match these

 

Screw-link couplers, and perhaps the "continental" safety chains (I have chain, but not hooks)

 

Would anyone make screw jacks + housing anything close to this for OO?

 

 

A few other general questions, if anyone has info.

 

I'm a bit confused over what I'm seeing for the decking.  There are about 20 cross-members on the solebars of maybe 1.5" x 3", although I can't tell the material.

There appears to be a thin (1/4" ?) steel plate over this, but what confuses me is that this appears to cover the entire wagon in views from above, while the end photo seems to show it as only 4-5" wide, sitting in a notch cut out of the end cross-piece.

 

The linked page has a very small copy of GWR diagram 50.  Is there somewhere online that I can find a more detailed - or at least larger (pixel-wise) - drawing to help me lay out the trusses?  Also, there are four lengthwise trusses, and I also see some transverse members, but they're a bit harder to make out in the photos, although it appears to be at the three lower "junction" points.  I don't yet know how religious I'll be in trying to replicate all of this, and may skip the diagonal cross-braces, as I think it's the side-profile that distinguishes this car.

 

 

[steveb860]

unfortunately your link does not work. gramodels.co.uk produce a warflat, from which they sell their whitemetal screwjacks as a separate item. Ratio do a kit of diamond frame bogies, product code 125. Not sure if these are correct for what you are planning. ( Edit, no they are not !! )but they come with plastic wheels which need replacing with metal one from the likes of Romford.

Edited December 15, 2013 by steveb860

[Grovenor]

Link did not work for me either, but cutting back to the home page it was easy to find the relevant entries. These are vehicles modified for carrying WW1 tanks. A lot of extra trussing there, good luck with it.

Try this link http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww1-gwr-macaw.htm

Keith

[steveb860]

Strangely enough, tonight I was putting some of my late father's EM gauge models into a cabinet, and there is a GWR  Macaw B, along with a rectank loaded with 2 Vickers tanks..  Unfortunately I cannot work out the lineage of any of it. 

[Miss Prism]

The Hornby Macaw H J25 was not converted for military use. The longer Bachmann J21 would be more suitable.

[Adrian Wintle]

Strangely enough, tonight I was putting some of my late father's EM gauge models into a cabinet, and there is a GWR  Macaw B, along with a rectank loaded with 2 Vickers tanks..  Unfortunately I cannot work out the lineage of any of it. 

 

Macaw B would likely be Mainline/Bachmann if RTR. Vickers tanks (Light MkVI, I'm assuming) would likely be the JBModels (now Airfix) plastic kit - actually a vey nice item and IMO the best of the JBModels range. If not a plastic kit, I'm sure one or other of the wargaming companies has done them in resin and/or white metal in 1/72 or 1/76.

 

Adrian

[velotrain]

The Hornby Macaw H J25 was not converted for military use. The longer Bachmann J21 would be more suitable.

 

I have no personal knowledge, but selected the Hornby over the Bachmann based on this thread - relevant bits on page 2:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74216-wdlr-at-battle-of-cambrai/page-2?hl=+gwr +macaw

 

PLEASE NOTE that the +macaw was not included in the link I copied over from that page, so you will need to copy that bit and paste it in after the link fails - or alternately search for Cambrai.

 

Sorry that my link to the proto page didn't work - not sure why.  Not a factor, but there were several days between writing the text and posting, as I learned I had to back out IE 11 to be able to paste into a message (thanks Andy).

 

It's entirely possible that Hornby produces(d) a Macaw A (?) that is longer than the H I bought.  If not, you will need to take your opinion to the other thread, where two (seemingly knowledgeable) folks said the Hornby was more appropriate as a base for the type B, and that the Bachmann was most likely post-WW1 - perhaps you were thinking of the other great war?

 

Steve - I had noticed that Gramodels sold the jacks separate from the Warflat, I assumed because multiple styles were used over the years.  Pity that he has only tiny photos of a tiny minority of his products - would you be able to tell which is "closer" from his product names?  I've heard his quality is quite good, and saw others wishing his site ("brochure") was more up to contemporary standards - perhaps he grudgingly has a site but still prefers/relies on show sales for his income.

 

81C - thanks for the Cambrian bogie tip.  Perhaps I'll look at the stock bogies when they arrive and decide if I can live with them.  I've been realizing that I'm paying rather a lot for just a pair of wagon chassis ;-)   We actually do have Evergreen over here (I had always thought they were one of "ours") - I'm trying to source the bits that are (much) more scarce.

 

At least on the 60 cm side, it seems that manufacturers are producing lots of new stuff for the approaching WW1 Centennial - even Slater's in 16 mm, but I don't know if that's also happening on the SG side of things, although noticed elsewhere on RMweb that someone was using 3-D printing for tank flats (forget which) and a tank ramp.  I was impressed that the fellow doing it actually test-printed his designs, vs. displaying a rendering and waiting for others to test for him - I won't order anything the designer isn't willing to show me a photo of.  He was also sensitive to the limits of the process, and properties of the various materials - unexpected integrity for that arena.  The Macaw's have a distinctive profile, and are dominant in the photos showing Mk IV females loaded for shipment to Cambrai.

[hmrspaul]

Some of the strengthened ones survived well in industrial use. There is a whole set of photos of one from http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbolster/e6124e0a9

 

Paul

 

 

[velotrain]

Some of the strengthened ones survived well in industrial use. There is a whole set of photos of one from http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbolster/e6124e0a9

 

Paul

 

Thanks for the link Paul - that looks like the same one as at the other link, and the chassis detail shots should help me with the truss work.  Somewhere I saw (perhaps on this site) images of one that was (I think) still in private service - perhaps for preservation work. 

 

Paul - would you know anything about the decking?  It puzzles me - see the original post.

 

Charles

[hmrspaul]

Thanks for the link Paul - that looks like the same one as at the other link, and the chassis detail shots should help me with the truss work.  Somewhere I saw (perhaps on this site) images of one that was (I think) still in private service - perhaps for preservation work. 

 

Paul - would you know anything about the decking?  It puzzles me - see the original post.

 

Charles

 I thought my detail photos show the remains of the alteration to the decking quite well, remarkable that it has survived. when used with Gregs photos - most of which appear to have been borrowed from the GWR bible (no problem way past copyright).

 

I am sure I have a photo of one of these on BR, but cannot find it - and have now realised that I have not scanned some of the GWR bolster wagons that I can find! Soon to be done.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[velotrain]

 I thought my detail photos show the remains of the alteration to the decking quite well, remarkable that it has survived.

 

Paul - This is the question that I still don't feel I have an answer to - the steel plate appearance from the end vs. the top.  I'm also curious as to the composition of the cross-members.  Charles

 

"I'm a bit confused over what I'm seeing for the decking.  There are about 20 cross-members on the solebars of maybe 1.5" x 3", although I can't tell the material.

There appears to be a thin (1/4" ?) steel plate over this, but what confuses me is that this appears to cover the entire wagon in views from above, while the end photo seems to show it as only 4-5" wide, sitting in a notch cut out of the end cross-piece."

[57xx]

I agree with 81c and miss prism, the Hornby macaw H is the wrong starting point. The H was a 35ft over headstock 20 ton wagon, whereas the B was 45ft over headstocks and rated 30 tons. It was the J14 Macaws B that were converted for tank use (diag J17 after conversion) and the basis for building new diagram J18 specifically for that purpose (ref Atkins et al). I believe the advice in the other thread is incorrect.

 

edit; corrected diagram numbers.

Edited December 18, 2013 by 57xx

[steveb860]

Macaw B would likely be Mainline/Bachmann if RTR. Vickers tanks (Light MkVI, I'm assuming) would likely be the JBModels (now Airfix) plastic kit - actually a vey nice item and IMO the best of the JBModels range. If not a plastic kit, I'm sure one or other of the wargaming companies has done them in resin and/or white metal in 1/72 or 1/76.

 

Adrian

Thanks Adrian. I am aware of the lineage of the Vickers, they are the original  JB models offing. As a military modeller, I advised him as to what to buy!!. It's the Macaw I don't know the lineage of. It may well have started as a Mainline example, but if it was, not much of the original wagon remains. He didn't do out of the box RTR. If this 1mb max download problem is ever resolved, I will post pics

[steveb860]

Steve - I had noticed that Gramodels sold the jacks separate from the Warflat, I assumed because multiple styles were used over the years.  Pity that he has only tiny photos of a tiny minority of his products - would you be able to tell which is "closer" from his product names?  I've heard his quality is quite good, and saw others wishing his site ("brochure") was more up to contemporary standards - perhaps he grudgingly has a site but still prefers/relies on show sales for his income.

 

Hi Velotrain, Unfortunately , Bachmanns announcement of a Warflat has curtailed my project, but I was going to get 00401a bufferbeam with jack, a whitemetal casting which IIRC looks very similar that fitted to the Macaw 39226 in Grovenors link., so probably a good start.

Had quite a nice chat with the Gramodels chap at a show once. He was showing me some masters he was working on for future military vehicles, and he was amazed that I knew what they were going to be, as they were very basic plastic card shapes at that stage!!

[velotrain]

I had thought I sent something similar to the below about 14 hours ago, but don't see it on the site.

 

 

After poking around a bit, I now agree also - some influential quotes:

 

Wiki:  " The J-series was for bolster wagons . . . For example, 45 feet (14 m), 30 ton bogie vehicles were coded 'Macaw B"

 

Connoisseur Models:  " Macaw H  Bogie Bolster - These light 20 ton 35 foot bogie bolster vehicles were built by the GWR from 1927 onwards"

 

This image is my most likely destination with all this:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7266/7142791603_baeae578f3.jpg

 

The Macaw H thread has photos of a Macaw B currently in service on the SVR - Severn Valley perhaps?

 

I will likely source the Bachmann wagons from Hatton's, as I've had good dealings with them previously.  However, I noticed some well-done cars from Weathering Works on eBay, although at a substantially higher price.

 

I looked at the Cambrian GWR bogies, although the Bachmann ones look much better than the Hornby ones, and they seem to represent those on about half the cars shown on the Rail Album page.  I noticed on Hatton's that Bachmann will be coming out with 8-spoke wheels, although with an unknown ETA.  However, I'm still looking to source "the continental safety chains and screw coupling".

 

 

[velotrain]

Hi Velotrain, Unfortunately , Bachmanns announcement of a Warflat has curtailed my project, but I was going to get 00401a bufferbeam with jack, a whitemetal casting which IIRC looks very similar that fitted to the Macaw 39226 in Grovenors link., so probably a good start.

Had quite a nice chat with the Gramodels chap at a show once. He was showing me some masters he was working on for future military vehicles, and he was amazed that I knew what they were going to be, as they were very basic plastic card shapes at that stage!!

 

Steve - I am planning to use the 00401a.  I saw the Warflat on the Hatton's site last night, but Bachmann represents it using a photo with a WW2 tank onboard (and I believe included with the product), so took it to be a much later version than those used in WW1.

 

Gramodels indicates a wide range of future products over many scales, but I have to wonder just how many he will actually get to.  One of interest to WW1 modelers is a 7mmNG light railway workshop train (he already offers one in 009) - with interiors!  I'm sure he's a much nicer fellow than I am, although he attacked me for sending an email lacking suitable British niceties, and only wish he had a more informative site.

[Fat Controller]

Steve - I am planning to use the 00401a.  I saw the Warflat on the Hatton's site last night, but Bachmann represents it using a photo with a WW2 tank onboard (and I believe included with the product), so took it to be a much later version than those used in WW1.

 

Gramodels indicates a wide range of future products over many scales, but I have to wonder just how many he will actually get to.  One of interest to WW1 modelers is a 7mmNG light railway workshop train (he already offers one in 009) - with interiors!  I'm sure he's a much nicer fellow than I am, although he attacked me for sending an email lacking suitable British niceties, and only wish he had a more informative site.

The Warflat was a WW2 wagon, but based on the design of the bogie flat wagons sent to Europe in the latter stages of WW1; initially, these were intended for use by the American forces, but with the cessation of hostilities, many were sold to the French government, who distributed them amongst the various railway companies. Apart from the flat, there were bogie vans, high-sided opens (gondolas) and tank wagons. Examples of both flats and tanks remain in internal use at several sites in France. A quick search on Google Fr found this:-

http://www.tvnp.fr/wagons_plats/wagons_plats.html The TPs are a bit into the site, on the pages with a yellow background- the text confirms that they were built by either Pressed Steel in the USA or Leeds Forge in the UK.

According to another post I found, rebogied versions are still to be found in Long-Welded Rail trains. 

There was a purpose-built tank carrier built during WW1; the Rectank :- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/rectank . Curiously, BR revisited the design in the late 1950s, though the examples built then were rarely used for military traffic. Cambrian Models are bringing out a plastic kit sometime.

You might be able to source jacks from Genesis Kits:- http://www.genesiskits.co.uk/, who have manufactured WD wagons in the past.

[velotrain]

The Warflat was a WW2 wagon, but based on the design of the bogie flat wagons sent to Europe in the latter stages of WW1; initially, these were intended for use by the American forces, but with the cessation of hostilities, many were sold to the French government, who distributed them amongst the various railway companies.

 

Brian - Some of the WW1 Warflats were indeed used by the British as tank carriers during the war, most famously in the build-up for Cambrai - see the "WDLR at Battle of Cambrai" thread.  Photos show Warflats, Rectanks, and Macaw B (+D?) reinforced frame wagons all being used.

 

Genesis doesn't appear to sell their jacks as parts (perhaps because they're cast on?), and they don't have the angular splayed surround as shown on the Rail Album - Macaw B site referenced earlier.

[Fat Controller]

Brian - Some of the WW1 Warflats were indeed used by the British as tank carriers during the war, most famously in the build-up for Cambrai - see the "WDLR at Battle of Cambrai" thread.  Photos show Warflats, Rectanks, and Macaw B (+D?) reinforced frame wagons all being used.

 

Genesis doesn't appear to sell their jacks as parts (perhaps because they're cast on?), and they don't have the angular splayed surround as shown on the Rail Album - Macaw B site referenced earlier.

What I would suggest, and what the French text on the TP wagon seems to say, is that the wagons used in WW1 were those which would become 'Plat TP' (i.e. the ones supplied by the US Army Transportation Corps) and were not the ones used by the British Army during WW2. One difference it points out is that the WW1 wagons had 'archbar', rather than 'diamond' bogies.

The other possible sources of jacks might be Appleby Model Engineering or ABS; both have done Warflats or Rectanks in the past. I don't think either has a web-site,unfortunately. Matador Models might be able to help also:- http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/index.htm

[hmrspaul]

What I would suggest, and what the French text on the TP wagon seems to say, is that the wagons used in WW1 were those which would become 'Plat TP' (i.e. the ones supplied by the US Army Transportation Corps) and were not the ones used by the British Army during WW2. One difference it points out is that the WW1 wagons had 'archbar', rather than 'diamond' bogies.

The other possible sources of jacks might be Appleby Model Engineering or ABS; both have done Warflats or Rectanks in the past. I don't think either has a web-site,unfortunately. Matador Models might be able to help also:- http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/index.htm

All way OT.

 

There were large numbers of WW1 warflats which remained on Britain's railways afterwards - the LNW, MR etc. converted them to bolsters. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ww1warflat

 Unfortunately for this discussion all have had the jacks removed.

 

There was much discussion of warflats here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46704-mod-train-warflats/page-2?hl=warflat&do=findComment&comment=593601

 

Greg discusses the two designs of WW2 Warflats here http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww2-45-ton-warflat-1.htm Initially they were very similar to those built in WW1. My photos are in http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/modawarflatpfb I should sort them out separately sometime. I look forward to the Bachmann one if only because I wrote them a report on how useful they would be some years ago.

 

I would have thought Adrian Swain at ABS would be the best source of parts - he usually makes all the separate parts of his whitemetal kits available separately.

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

Having been reminded that I hadn't loaded up some of my GWR bogie bolster photos I have added 33 photos to http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbolster

 including a couple of a re-inforced example in BR departmental  use LDW84391 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbolster/e2eb4680f   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbolster/e281eb587

 

Paul Bartlett

[velotrain]

81C - thanks for the Roxey Mouldings tip.  I asked him about screw link couplings, and Dave recommended the Markits/Romford ones.  It's quite unusual and highly commendable for one manufacturer to steer a customer to someone else's product ;-)  He is also willing to receive and consolidate intra-UK shipments, so they don't have to all cross the pond separately. 

 

I hope I wasn't too sharp re: Evergreen.  I wouldn't even consider undertaking this if I wasn't familiar with their range.

 

I've decided that I should get the Bachmann wagons for now and work on the reinforcement trusses before I actually order the other bits.  Perhaps as some of you, I have a tendency to start a project and then get distracted by a newer and, at the time, more exciting idea - AKA Modeler's A.D.D.

 

Thanks again to all of you for your help - I think I'm fully "kitted out".

 

Charles

[Ian G]

I am converting a Dragon Models 7mm Macaw G (GWR Bogie Bolster A) can anyone point me towards what numbers they run under in BR use (DW) but not crane runner.

 

Ian G