Duchess Experts

[Mike70]

Are there any LMS Duchess experts on this forum?

 

I've got two Duchess Of Sutherland, one in Crimson Lake and one in LMS Black.

 

The black one is R3014, which is a model of the Duchess Of Sutherland in preservation about two or thee years ago. It even has the overhead cable warning flashes.

 

I'd like to get it renamed as a different Duchess (as opposed to City of) and the flashes removed, so that it represents a 1940's loco, rather than a preserved loco.

 

The Duchess Of Sutherland was built as a conventional Duchess (I.e. not streamlined), with a blended footplate.

So that limits my choice to;

 

Duchess of Buccleuch

Duchess of Atholl

Duchess of Montrose

Duchess of Abercorn

 

But it all depends on the tender. I've seen photos and models of the Duchess of Buccleuch and the tender is clearly different to the Duchess of Sutherland.

 

Can anyone give me some advice about the four locos listed above? I.e. did any of them have the same tender as the Duchess of Sutherland and did they happen to wear LMS black livery?

 

Apologies if I've posted in the wrong forum. But I could not see anything more suitable.

 

Thanks in advance,

Mike.

[hallmodelspares]

Hello Mike i can tell you the following

 

Atholl, Montrose and Abercorn had the same tender at that time atholl and abercorn prior to being LMS black were painted grey for WD operations. A few of the class never recieved this livery as casings were removed over a long period so with last rebuild in 1948 being city of lancaster. Up until this stage this engine and many others in casings were just black unlined

 

A couple of other engines have turned out in this livery in model form namely Stoke on Trent and ST.Albans Along with post nationalisation ones by Hornby in lined black a few year ago as well

[robmcg]

 6230 Duchess of Buccleigh got tender 9707 in 1945 to replace 9748  9707 was from 6224 Alexandra,  so an early build tender?

 

6231 Atholl   tender 9749

6232 Montrose 9750

6233 Sutherland 9751

6234 Abercorn   9752

 

Colours;

 

all above built in LMS maroon

6230  never plain black, lined LMS black 9/46  experimental BR blue 5/48

6231   plain black 9/45   lined LMS black 8/46                "

6232  never plain black  lined LMS black  5/48               "                       error in records here?

6233  never plain black  lined LMS black 10/47   BR blue 5/50

6234  never plain black  experimental LMS blue/grey 3/46  BR lined black 10/48

 

that's a tiny bit in the excellent Irwell 'Book of Coronation Pacifics Mk2'  which was available via Amazon last year... exhaustive photos of every engine in class etc.

 

I am presuming those seen in black with 'British Railways' on tender were LMS lined black repainted?

[robmcg]

further, the lower sweep to the front of the tender side at driver's height was on 6231-34 from new but the higher sweep ex-streamlined tender was on 6230 after May 45.

 

probably others have more detailed history with liveries.

 

Cheers,

 

Robbie

 

edit p s this might do well in the UK Prototype Questions section

[Mike70]

Robbie,

 

Thanks for the info.

 

It means I can rule out Abercorn on colour and probably Duchess of Buccleuch because of the tender. I'll try posting the question on the UK Prototype Questions section in the morning.

 

Thanks again for the advice,

Mike.

[Brocp]

Montrose will be the only other one with that Tender/Livery combo I'm fairly certain. 6230 & 6231 had de streamlined tenders by then, at least judging by photos I have seen.

 

btw the line from the footplate that follows the cab curve along the bottom is wrong, check photos of the presevered 6233 in lined black to see what I mean.

 

And WD Grey? None received anything like that.

[hallmodelspares]

Brocp thanks for correcting an oversight with WD engine i mistoke the wrenn grey model

to be WD grey when instead its lms grey

 

Robmcg to clarify the black british railway duchesses these where actually lined different to

the lms version being more like BR Lined black

[Mike70]

Hello Mike i can tell you the following

 

Atholl, Montrose and Abercorn had the same tender at that time atholl and abercorn prior to being LMS black were painted grey for WD operations. A few of the class never recieved this livery as casings were removed over a long period so with last rebuild in 1948 being city of lancaster. Up until this stage this engine and many others in casings were just black unlined

 

A couple of other engines have turned out in this livery in model form namely Stoke on Trent and ST.Albans Along with post nationalisation ones by Hornby in lined black a few year ago as well

 

Thanks for your reply, I didn't notice it last night (I was using a small tablet screen and it was late).

 

Montrose will be the only other one with that Tender/Livery combo I'm fairly certain. 6230 & 6231 had de streamlined tenders by then, at least judging by photos I have seen.

 

btw the line from the footplate that follows the cab curve along the bottom is wrong, check photos of the presevered 6233 in lined black to see what I mean.

 

And WD Grey? None received anything like that.

 

I see what you mean about the error.  The line from the footplate should run into the cab lining (like R2856 City Of Manchester).

Might see if I can get that corrected by removing it.

[sandwich station]

were painted grey for WD operations.

 

 

And WD Grey? None received anything like that.

You maybe referring to the grey they were painted (Not Just Coronations)for photographic purposes.

[jwoch65]

I have the original LMS loco tender record cards which include the Coronation class. They give the details of all the original tender numbers and to which loco they were attached to. They list the changes and dates fitted to which loco. There are also occasional references to particular features.

[Black Sheep]

 

 

 

You maybe referring to the grey they were painted (Not Just Coronations)for photographic purposes.

You mean works grey? Essentially primer but often pushed into the works yard for photographs before being painted and brought into service