Guidance required for a correct decision on which dcc control system to buy

[petertg]

Good evening all.

Here I am again hoping for your benevolence. In the first place I would say that I have read various posts requesting aid on dcc and the more I read, the less clear I see my situation. For at least 18 months I have been contemplating the upgrading of my dcc system (while the money has gone other more pressing domestic projects).

The above is my layout plan. It provides for a complete double circuit going under then over the bridge, while passing through both stations. Alternatively, it provides two independent circuits, one going continuously under the bridge and calling at the top station and the other going continuously over the bridge and calling at neither station, but crossing the first circuit, a system which requires constant vigilance to avoid collisions at the crossing point.

Thus, in theory, four units could be in motion, two on the mainline circuits, one in the fiddle yard and the fourth on the sidings around the top station. But this would require three operators, each with a respective controller, which is impractical. Thus, realistically, although various units could be parked on the layout, only two trains can be running at one same time, either two on the mainlines or one on the mainlines and the other on the sidings or fiddle yard.

My system is a PIKO starter kit which provides for start and stop, lights on and off functions and address changing, but nothing else and has a limit of two (modern) locomotives running at the same time.

I have two Bachmann DMUs, one Hornby tank locomotive, one Electrotren Commuter Train and the original locomotive and rake that came with the PIKO set which all perform well from the dcc point of view.

I also have two old Lima locomotives (which I want to keep because I have a lot of old Lima rolling stock which is incompatible with the more modern locomotives because of the height of the couplings) and one Wrenn City Class locomotive which have not performed at all when digitized (I have spoilt several decoders in the effort). After various exchanges of comments on another forum and reading a lot, I have come to the conclusion that the problem with these locomotives is their high power consumption and the low capacity of the PIKO system.

Thus, while I know that many don’t like to recommend specific brands, I would be grateful if, in the light of the above explanations, fellow members could indicate a range of controllers and decoders that might suit my purpose, without falling short or overshooting too much. My idea of price would be around GBP250. I can get an Uhlenbrock Intellibox basic for about that price here, but if there is anything more economical, I would consider it. Also one with a handset would be better.

Sorry if it's longwinded, but I felt that an adequate explanatiion was required for ease of making recommendfations

 

 

[leopardml2341]

Digitrax is my personal preference for many reasons that may only be subjective.

 

I can offer one 'objective' observation that may help you decide:-

 

The Digitrax DT402 throttle unit has effectively two 'controllers' each with their own control knobs and it is easy to 'switch' between them.; you simply 'tweak' the one that is not currently operating the selected loco, this then becomes the 'master' if you like and the loco (currently selected on that 'side') responds to your commands. 'Tweak' the 'first' one again and you take control of that loco etc., etc.

 

Sorry for so many 'containers', but there are a lot of relative statements. I believe you can download a manual, from Digitrax' website with pictures that explains it a lot better than I can in these few words.

 

Hope that helps?

 

Andy.

 

ps no connection with Digitrax other than a satisfied user (having swapped from NCE).

 

Edit - Meant DT402 and Not DT 420

[corax67]

Hi Peter,

 

As you have acknowledged in your opening post some of us really don't like recommending a particular system. This is not because we are particularly partisan or devotees to only one system but rather that we recognise we may be influencing someone into spending a great deal of money on a system they may not feel comfortable using in real time.

 

Speaking solely as a very very satisfied user I would recommend a Lenz Set 100. At around £265 it does fall at the very top of your stated budget and comes as an LVZ100 (5amp) base station plus an LH100 handset. You will need to factor in the cost of a transformer but even running 4 loco's at once the lower powered TR100 is perfectly adequate.

 

On the LH100 (v3.6 software) you can configure the number of loco's held at one time - the stack - and in your scenario you could set a stack size of 4 and then scroll sequentially through these to run your layout on one handset. I have run 4 sound chipped loco's on our 12'x8' tail chaser church exhibition layout and whilst it calls for a LOT of concentration to balance the speeds whilst playing with the sounds it is great fun. Running 4 loco's on your plan would be simpler as once the loops are speed balanced they can be pretty much ignored whilst you concentrate on shunting.

 

If all else fails there is the big red STOP button to get you out of trouble and prevent an oops moment.

 

For your older loco's you will need to purchase the more expensive decoders from companies like Zimo, CTS or Lenz which have an operating current of 1.5amp constant / 2 amp surge as a minimum - the drawback is that these are generally physically larger than their lower spec counterparts.

 

I hope this is of some help.

[johnb]

Hi

 

As the others have indicated a DCC controller choice is very much a personal one.

 

I settled on an NCE Powercab after trying several others. It suited me personally in the way it is operated and gave me a good specification on the facilities that it provides and additionally the price was attractive for the features offered. It has a 2 amp capacity and I use it with an additional Cab04 hand held unit.

 

Hope this helps

 

John

[richard brown]

Looking at your track plan if you are going dcc point countrol with the layout I would the ECoS would be the best system as it will be able to display the layout and you change the points by touch not entering numbers and it has 2 control on it. If you don't want point countrol go with digitrax. The other advice is go and play with it at show or at a shop before you buy.

 

Richard

[Ed-farms]

Bachmann Dynamis might do the job on this layout, if you upgrade to the pro box you can have 4 infared controllers in use - one per loco in use controlled by each eprson or just one controlling all 4. Dynamis will only hold 40 locos but I don't think you will have that many in use on here somehow. Probably be able to pick up a cheap 2nd hand model somewhere.

 

As Richard Brown says I would go to a shop or show and try some, http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ usually have a few to try on their exhibition stand.

[250BOB]

And there lies the problem........we all are very happy with the system we use(normally), so its difficult to give an unbiased opinion.

 

I would be tempted to stay clear of the Gaugemaster systems......simply because two pals of mine with Prodigy Advance2 systems, have sent them back to Gaugemaster numerous times for small repairs.  They have received great customer care.......but it doesnt say much for the robustness of the system perhaps.  And you do hear of many many others on here suffering the same problems.

 

I use the lenz system......never a fault with it in seven years, and I would clearly recommend that.

 

Bob

[AndrewC]

Right. Time to wade into this. Peter from your avatar I see you are in Spain so hitting an exhibition to test drive isn't really an option for you. This makes things a bit more difficult. Looking at your layout I'd suggest a system with around 4-5 amps of power. Personally I'd narrow the choice down to Lenz, Digitrax, and NCE. If you want fancy touch screens and more of a video game experience you may as well just hook up an Android tablet using Engine Driver, and JMRI to which ever system you choose rather than fork out for the very expensive ECoS. It may well be blasphemous on here to say this but I find the thing very plasticy and not at all worth the money.

 

My first DCC experience was in 95 with Lenz. Hated it. Nothing but problems. That was then, it has improved somewhat. I still find the interface rather crappy from their throttles. I went fully into Digitrax as system of choice. I still like the dual control aspect of their DT100-DT402 throttles. Having said that, if I was starting over again today, I'd probably go with the NCE Powercab. Easy to use throttle, and simple to setup and use. Rather than push one system over an other ask yourself these questions.

 

1: Button, knob, or thumbwheel for control. (Lenz, Digitrax, NCE in that order)

2: point control from DCC? From the throttle Digitrax and NCE are much easier to flip between loco and point mode.

3: Signalling. if you have plans to automate signals you are probably best with Digitrax. CML make an excellent Loconet based system for signal control.

4: local service. Do you have any local DCC suppliers, if so you may want to limit yourself to what they offer, just to make service and support easier.

[Kal]

Decision is based on so many personal elements, but for me:

 

Choose a system that has Loconet. The number of Third party, as well as the manufacturers own accessories, leaves you spoilt for choice, if and when you want to expand.

 

PS...   Don't base any decision on what any brand say they INTEND to release, it tends to lead to disappointment... Base your choice on what is available now and has been proven to work.

[Suzie]

Petertg

 

As you have already had bad experiences with decoders you are probably aware of the need for better quality decoders. The older locos will not have sockets so you really need to look at fitting decoders that have a removable harness or fitting adaptor boards so that you can plug in different decoders to try them.

 

Since no one has ever complained about the performance of Zimo decoders they are worth trying in the first instance. You might not be able to use the entry level ones if you have locos with high current draw though, but if they are very old replacement magnets might make them work better than new and significantly reduce the current draw.

 

The JST-9 connector harness is probably the easiest to fit to old locos and Lenz make their Gold decoders with a JST-9 connector along with some other manufacturers so Lenz might be worth considering too but might blow the budget a bit being a bit more expensive than Zimo (which does not have a jst option).

 

I am not familiar with the Piko controller but if you are happy with using it you can add a booster to improve its power output. If you are not happy with it and need a replacement there should be enough money left in your budget for a Multimaus split from a train set and a second controller. With the right power supply you will have 4A which I would expect to be adequate for what you are trying to do but if you have a bit more budget perhaps an NCE command station might be nicer.

[petertg]

Thank you all for this valuable information. I now have some guidelines to follow up and consider what to purchase and whether to purchase locally or on-line.

 

Regards and best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.

[GoingUnderground]

To reinforce what others have said, try before you buy. What I like and recommend you may well hate, and vice versa. Never buy on the strength of products announced that are not yet on sale, manufacturers can and sometimes do change their plans. Also don't just look at controllers, look at what peripherals you can connect to them. The NMRA standards only refer to communications between the controller and the decoders. When you buy a controller you are potentially locking yourself in to that controller's manufacturer and their peripherals unless you choose one of the more "open" standards such as Loconet or XpressNet where you may have a wider choice of supplier, but still no guarantee of interoperability.

[petertg]

While not quite on the original subject but related thereto, as regards upgrading locomotives, where is the magnet located in the Lima pancake motor, can this magnet be replaced by a more powerful modern neo-magnet and, if so, where can such magnet be obtained.? I have exploded diagrams of both my locos but, since the parts are numbered but not named, I cannot locate the magnet.

[corax67]

A fantastic article on fettling the Lima mother can be found here :

 

http://chippedblade.wordpress.com/index/improve-the-performance-of-old-lima-motors/

 

Which details increasing performance, tuning and re-motoring - a really useful and practical read.

[leopardml2341]

Thank you all for this valuable information. I now have some guidelines to follow up and consider what to purchase and whether to purchase locally or on-line.

 

Regards and best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.

Likewise, and let us know how you get on ?

[TWG]

Thus, while I know that many don’t like to recommend specific brands, I would be grateful if, in the light of the above explanations, fellow members could indicate a range of controllers and decoders that might suit my purpose, without falling short or overshooting too much. My idea of price would be around GBP250. I can get an Uhlenbrock Intellibox basic for about that price here, but if there is anything more economical, I would consider it. Also one with a handset would be better.

Sorry if it's longwinded, but I felt that an adequate explanatiion was required for ease of making recommendfations

 

 

I think it very likely that if you bought an Intellibox Basic and an infrared receiver module (66520) you could use your Piko handset with it.  You would need to check this, but the latter is a rebadged Uhlenbrock IRIS.  The IB Basic is a good device, though the Intellibox 2, despite being considerably more expensive, is in my opinion so much superior as to be better value for money.

[petertg]

Hi again all:

 

I read the article indicated by Corax67 (for which I thank you), but, as far as I could see, it did not answer my questions as to where the magnet is located, can it be replaced by a more modern one (neo) and, if so, where can such neo magnet be obtained.

[corax67]

Hi peter,

 

Hopefully this pic is of more use - the magnet is the brown looking ring on the outer edge of the motor casing

 

 

Not sure if replacements are available though as my quick trawl of the internet hasn't turned up anything appropriate yet but I will keep looking.