RMweb Premium rprodgers Posted January 4, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2014 I know the official repainting dates for GW coaches can be looked up but allowing for any infrequency of repaints what would have still been present in this period? For instance looking through some of my albums showing secondary GW passenger trains of this period would the "darker " coaches for instance just be likely to be grubby chocolate and cream by the early 1930s or could some have still remained all over chocolate or crimson lake especially older stock/ even scrapped at this time in these older liveries? NB I'm aware that some photos show inter regional running and include LMS coaches. I am not aware of how frequently stock would have been reprinted at this period and assume there was a fair overlap in the changeovers and only happened if the coach needed to pass through the paint shop for a full repaint? This was all bought to mind when someone suggested Hornby's forthcoming 1914 troop train pack should have the coaches in WW1 wartime overall brown. (Please note I am specifically referring to passenger stock not the usual brown stock ) Thanks if anyone can shed any light on this R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 4, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2014 The standard period for a repaint is 7 years although when the GW went back to panelled Chocolate and Cream in 1922, the process was speeded up Circa 1923, I would guess that mainline and probably secondary stock were done quicker than branch line stock. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The last crimson lake coaches appeared in early 1922. A pre-WWI finish was expected to last approx 10-12 years. The complicating factors in the mid-1920s to early '30s were the sheer number of changes to the official livery over that period and the fact that very little repainting had been done during WWI, owing to staff shortages, so a lot of 'catching up' was involved for older stock. I can't recall a picture of a corridor coach still in crimson after c 1927/8, but I imagine some of the post-1920 toplights did survive in crimson to at least the late 1920s. The post-1922 painting regime seems to have used less varnishing, so the pre-WWI repainting 'length' is unlikely to have held true (edit: thanks SS for the 7-year figure), and the pace of repainting seems to have accelerated during the mid- to late-1920s. The fully-lined chocolate and cream post-1922 livery (and its 1924 variant) could still be seen into the early 1930s, but was probably extremely rare by 1932/33 for the early Collett stock. Some old (mainly Clerestory) non-corridor suburban stock was being outshopped in plain brown after c 1926. It all adds up to a complicated picture where it is impossible to generalise, and some intelligent guessing needs to be applied to particular vehicles and their build dates. As always, good pictures of the time help enormously, but bear in mind that in the period you are asking about, there were at least five liveries in various states of 'waxing and waning'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The only example of a mainline crimson coach lasting to the 1930's,I have evidence of, is a Dreadnought sleeping car. It was on borrowed time, with steel sided replacements on the way, so I assume the final years were served as a spare. As Miss Prism states, there is no hard and fast rule. A contributor to early repainting after 1922, was the programme to replace gas lighting with electric. This involved extensive roof and internal alterations which usually required a repaint. The opportunity to repaint the sides was usually taken at the same time, for what had become a fully refurbished coach. This extended the lives of the corridor clerestories well into the late 1930's. Only the onset of war ensured their continued survival after that. For these reasons, for anyone using the Hornby corridor clerestories, a full train of all gas lit into the 1930's was unlikely. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 If I give the official livery dates then you can work out yourself what was running in what livery. Up to 1922 : GWR Maroon fully lined in yellow. Garter coat of arms 1923-27 : Chocolate & cream with new style full lining out in black and yellow and indian red bolections and dropights. Garter coat of arms. 1928 : Plain chocolate and cream, said to have no waist lining although black shows on some official prints. 'Third' also not present on doors. Twin shield coat of arms. 1929-30 : Introduction of double waist lining on Riviera stock extended to some other stock. Single waist black & yellow lining also introduced on lesser stock. Early 1930s : Passenger Luggage Vans went over to all over chocolate with twin shield coa. 1934 : Shirt button roundel introduced to replace twin shield coa and G W R insignia. Roofs white in all cases and underframe & ends black. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rprodgers Posted January 4, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thanks for the useful information, so for all intent and purposes if there are darker coaches in a secondary passenger train in 1929 they are most likely to be choc & cream in need of a repaint and the last of the WW1 overall choc would have disappeared several years earlier. Wanting some variety in my coaches then it looks like they will have to be LMS ones inter regional R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thanks for the useful information, so for all intent and purposes if there are darker coaches in a secondary passenger train in 1929 they are most likely to be choc & cream in need of a repaint and the last of the WW1 overall chock would have disappeared several years earlier. Wanting some variety in my coaches then it looks like they will have to be LMS ones inter regional R Overall choc was a 1907-1911 livery, replaced in 1912 by the dark lake livery unti 1922. In ten years from 1912 to 1922 a lot of coaches could be repainted and somehow I doubt the darker coaches in secondary passenger train in 1929 were dirty choc & cream. Might have been coaches relegated to workmans trains in all over brown or simply less important coaches in pre 1923 lake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rprodgers Posted January 4, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2014 Ok I was misled or recalled wrongly that during WW1 they had reverted to plain colours browns, blacks ... as in a livery of convenience rather than the official lake colour. In the photos I had seen we are talking about individual coaches being noticeably one shade compared to their fellows. My SRM is in the 1923-28 choc & cream full lining but all the SRM that I have seen pictured 1930 onwards have by this time been repainted in the 1928 simplified livery. SRM's I am guessing maybe a special case despite not being toplink "coaches" but got dirtier quicker and needed more frequent repaints/ overhauls R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Ok I was misled or recalled wrongly that during WW1 they had reverted to plain colours browns, blacks ... as in a livery of convenience rather than the official lake colour. In the photos I had seen we are talking about individual coaches being noticeably one shade compared to their fellows. Are you sure the odd coach is not an LMS or SR coach on some sort of through working? This did happen in places. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 in WW1 some coaches were painted plain brown, but there's no easy way of telling which ones, but I would assume mostly second line stuff. For the change-over from lake/maroon to chocolate and cream, the Board voted additional funds, so that livery would have vanished quite quickly. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I have found no references to brown being adopted during World War One. Lake had been adopted in 1908 and was making itself felt by 1913. Shortages of men lead to shabby coaches during WW1 and shortages of materials lead to some coaches appearing in both black and Khaki colours with minimal decoratiom. Coversely Ambulance Trains were finished in full livery though it seems it was not until 1922 that any effort was made to generally improve the appearance of rolling stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I agree with Coach. I have no record or photo evidence of all over brown livery specifically for WW1. To my knowledge the crimson lake livery was the norm throughout WW1. There were still carriages in fully lined chocolate and cream throughout this period, that were still awaiting next overhaul and repaint. The short lived all over chocolate from 1908-12, would still have been seen in WW1. Photo evidence of the time, such as the Kenning & Brookman collections show the lined crimson lake in the main, especially as the newest stock was constructed in Crimson livery. Older stock constructed in chocolate and cream periods was still about as was some all over chocolate from pre war days. As an example of how long some coaches lasted in older colours, a while back, some members of the Great Western Study Group carried out an investigation based on the question 'did the Great Bear ever haul chocolate and Cream stock?' If you considering 111 ran from 1908 -23 when chocolate and cream was not the standard livery, then 111 should never have had the chance.. It took a while but those involved, eventually found some rare images with chocolate and cream vehicles in the train. Although the Board voted additional funds, that did not mean vehicles were called in immediately for a repaint. The funds just allowed the extra expense for two tone chocolate and cream at the next scheduled overhaul. It would have been an interesting AGM justifying to the shareholders even more additional painting expenditure for vehicles that were not due for several years, at a time where trading conditions was difficult enough to pay a dividend. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Although the Board voted additional funds, that did not mean vehicles were called in immediately for a repaint. The funds just allowed the extra expense for two tone chocolate and cream at the next scheduled overhaul. It would have been an interesting AGM justifying to the shareholders even more additional painting expenditure for vehicles that were not due for several years, at a time where trading conditions was difficult enough to pay a dividend. Mike Wiltshire My understanding is that the funds were voted to allow a faster repaint schedule. I'll look up the Board minutes next time I'm at The National Archives and report back. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Can anyone confirm the re-introduction of chocolate and cream was in July 1922 for the first two trains of that summer's 'Cornish Riviera'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Can anyone confirm the re-introduction of chocolate and cream was in July 1922 for the first two trains of that summer's 'Cornish Riviera'? 70ft toplight stock was repainted during winter overhauls with ten coaches ready by April 1922 for a complete train. Unfortunately this repaints had not extended to the sllip coaches. Brand new 70ft stock was delivered in chocolate and cream for the Riviera 1924 summer timetable. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 My understanding is that the funds were voted to allow a faster repaint schedule. I'll look up the Board minutes next time I'm at The National Archives and report back. Mark I had a long chat with my coach gurus, and they agree with me that there was no hurried schedule to repaint. Funding was purely to cover the extra expense of materials. The Board may have expected a speedier painting schedule but it was never going to happen. Consider where would Swindon source the extra paint shop capacity and skilled workers to accelerate a scheme that required additional down time compared to the allocated hours to repaint in crimson?. A quick look through the coach records shows no unexpected increase in stock called to Swindon in the 1922/3 period. The usual winter maintenance programme appears to have continued as normal, and as mentioned above, it took until April 1922 to find enough repainted stock for the CRE and then only for the main train section. I was shown an image of a train containing a brand new 1925 build diner in pseudo chocolate and cream, and within the formation, is a front line Concerrtina coach, still in crimson three years after the crimson had been replaced. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCuckoo Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Interesting stuff. In the forthcoming WWI 'Princess Alice' train pack from Hornby the coaches are shown in chocolate and cream. Given what's been said, how likely would this be in reality? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Interesting stuff. In the forthcoming WWI 'Princess Alice' train pack from Hornby the coaches are shown in chocolate and cream. Given what's been said, how likely would this be in reality? Most unlikely a complete set of Chocolate and cream, though there were still odd chocolate and cream coaches still around during and after WWI. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 6, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2014 Most unlikely a complete set of Chocolate and cream, though there were still odd chocolate and cream coaches still around during and after WWI. Mike Wiltshire That coach livery in particular is definitely after World War 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCuckoo Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 That coach livery in particular is definitely after World War 1. Looks like a missed opportunity to produce them in crimson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 That coach livery in particular is definitely after World War 1. I thought they were being released in the fully panelled livery with gold lining, garter and class designations, which applies to pre-1912 or have I missed something? Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I thought they were being released in the fully panelled livery with gold lining, garter and class designations, which applies to pre-1912 or have I missed something? Mike Wiltshire The photo in the Hornby 2014 thread shows fully lined, garter crest, and split shields, so it is the early livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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