Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[corneliuslundie]

You'll be lucky to find a copy of Part 10. I asked permission years ago to republish the RR and TVR sections but never even got a reply.

I have the Johnson history but am finding it hard to read. Somehow, the format is just uninviting. I'm not sure if it is just too much text on the pages or what. But I suspect that the information is pretty reliable.

The WRRC has Mike Lloyd's drawings which it is intended to publish as a book, but we need to wait until we see the Basten/Watkins volume on Cambrian 4-4-0s before we can proceed. The collection includes the following relevant to this discussion:

2-4-0T no 59 14mm/ft

2-4-0T no 58 14mm/ft

2-4-0 no 55 14mm/ft

2-4-0T no 44 14mm/ft

Kitson Mid Wales 0-4-2 side elevation only, scale not stated

2-4-0T no 1196 ex CR No 58 Gladys 14mm/ft

There are also several carriage drawings but as they identiufied by length I am not sure which is which and if any of them is the Parliamentary stock

Typo warning: Small Passenger Class coupled wheels 5ft 6in not as stated above. Definitely 5ft for no 2.

Had you thought about something like the Tank Mineral Class of -04-0Ts, as seen on the Kerry branch among others? The trouble is that they never got to the coast line.

Jonathan

[Northroader]

You could also try for another second hand book, which might be more readily available than the RCTS one, "a pictorial record of Great Western absorbed engines", J H Russell, Oxford Publishing co., printed 1978,1987,1999.( Last by Ian Allen) ISBN 0 902888 74 9. Good for diagrams, photographs, roster lists, of the Cam R, although the classes that didn't make the GWR don't get in.

[ChrisN]

Chris - you might find this useful

 

http://www.coastlinemodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Camgearboxes.pdf

 

Based on scaled GWR weight diagrams, but should be close enough. The 2-4-0T conversion is valid for the rebuilt 2-4-0s as tender locomotives too. I used that drawing as the basis for drawing this, which is now being 3D printed:

 

LArge 2-4-0Th.jpg

 

There is a drawing of the 0-4-2 in Peter Johnson's New History book, and another from a different source in J.I.C. Boyd's Wrexham, Mold & Connah's Quay Railway book. 

 

Alan,

Thank you this is brilliant.  Yet more on the bottom of my to do list.

 

Thank you for the information about the drawing.  I had not 'seen' it, even though I have been through it several times; it took me two goes actually looking for it.

 

Now questions.  The 2-4-0 I assume I remove the tanks and the back of the cab?  I need to look at more pictures of the engine as all the ones I have seen today have had rounded cab sides.  The tenders I have seen look similar to the Class 61 tenders.   Does the chassis need to be scratch built or have you a donor chassis in mind?

 

On the PDF there is an Aston Goods, is that chassis scratchbuilt as well?

[ChrisN]

You'll be lucky to find a copy of Part 10. I asked permission years ago to republish the RR and TVR sections but never even got a reply.

I have the Johnson history but am finding it hard to read. Somehow, the format is just uninviting. I'm not sure if it is just too much text on the pages or what. But I suspect that the information is pretty reliable.

The WRRC has Mike Lloyd's drawings which it is intended to publish as a book, but we need to wait until we see the Basten/Watkins volume on Cambrian 4-4-0s before we can proceed. The collection includes the following relevant to this discussion:

2-4-0T no 59 14mm/ft

2-4-0T no 58 14mm/ft

2-4-0 no 55 14mm/ft

2-4-0T no 44 14mm/ft

Kitson Mid Wales 0-4-2 side elevation only, scale not stated

2-4-0T no 1196 ex CR No 58 Gladys 14mm/ft

There are also several carriage drawings but as they identiufied by length I am not sure which is which and if any of them is the Parliamentary stock

Typo warning: Small Passenger Class coupled wheels 5ft 6in not as stated above. Definitely 5ft for no 2.

Had you thought about something like the Tank Mineral Class of -04-0Ts, as seen on the Kerry branch among others? The trouble is that they never got to the coast line.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I had not considered the 0-4-0 for the reason it did not make it along the coast.  Maybe when I have everything else.

[ChrisN]

You could also try for another second hand book, which might be more readily available than the RCTS one, "a pictorial record of Great Western absorbed engines", J H Russell, Oxford Publishing co., printed 1978,1987,1999.( Last by Ian Allen) ISBN 0 902888 74 9. Good for diagrams, photographs, roster lists, of the Cam R, although the classes that didn't make the GWR don't get in.

 

Thank you.  I had thought of this one but perhaps I will actually have to action getting one.

[Quarryscapes]

Chris,

 

Knuckles is going to do the 2-4-0 as a tender loco at some point, if he doesn't I certainly will be. They came with 4 wheel tenders but occasionally did run with the 6 wheel tenders from the small 4-4-0 / 0-6-0 small goods locos.

 

I'm going to be using an etched chassis under mine, I will be ordering it soon. It can also be used under the tender loco. It's designed on the comet principle, but I intend to build mine split frame.

[ChrisN]

Chris,

 

Knuckles is going to do the 2-4-0 as a tender loco at some point, if he doesn't I certainly will be. They came with 4 wheel tenders but occasionally did run with the 6 wheel tenders from the small 4-4-0 / 0-6-0 small goods locos.

 

I'm going to be using an etched chassis under mine, I will be ordering it soon. It can also be used under the tender loco. It's designed on the comet principle, but I intend to build mine split frame.

 

Alan,

Thank you.  I will hang fire then, it is not as if I have nothing to be getting on with. On the front of 'A New History' is a 2-4-0 with a six wheeled tender.  Once I actually get into building locos I am going to have to spend more time looking at pictures and making sure I know what I am doing.

[Quarryscapes]

Alan,

Thank you.  I will hang fire then, it is not as if I have nothing to be getting on with. On the front of 'A New History' is a 2-4-0 with a six wheeled tender.  Once I actually get into building locos I am going to have to spend more time looking at pictures and making sure I know what I am doing.

 

As you're modelling the period when a lot of the rebuilds were taking place it could be a good excuse to have different versions of the same locomotive. 

[ChrisN]

As you're modelling the period when a lot of the rebuilds were taking place it could be a good excuse to have different versions of the same locomotive. 

 

I just need to check the photos and note the differences, double checking the date of the image

[MarkAustin]

There's a copy of RCTS Vol 10 on Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LOCOMOTIVES-GREAT-WESTERN-RAILWAY-1922-1947/dp/B003DD0682/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1462262471&sr=1-6&keywords=railway+correspondence

 

HTH.

 

Mark A

[ChrisN]

I have managed a little more modelling this week.  I have fitted the valences and was just about to paint them off white when I realised that it would be very difficult to see the 'joins' between the boards so I painted some shoes with black paint on some figures and then when cleaning the brush used the thinned paint to give the valance a black wash.

 

 

Once it was dry, i.e., the next evening I then dry brushed the valence with off white as I did not want to cover over the 'gaps'.  I did it a couple of times but I was not sure I had done it enough as it is quite difficult to see under artificial light and I do not try my eyes very much.  As you can see it is not as good as I had hoped but I am not sure I should do any more.  I assume that even if cleaned regularly they would not be pristine due to their proximity to smoke from the engines.

 

 

Now time for a 'Spot the Difference' between two pictures.  If you look carefully there are 34 of them.

 

 

As you may be able to see I am in grave danger of actually finishing it, although there is still a way to go yet.

 

 

I have some Cambrian Seat ends on order from Alan Butler from Modelu which I will pick up from him at Expo EM next Saturday which will go in it with a few left over.

 

Finally, as you know my working practise is to have as many things on the go as possible, just so I always have something to do, I decided to draw these.

 

 

I decided to draw it onto graph paper to get the dimensions and lines correct and will use it as a template to cut plastic.  I have another up my sleeve as well but I have not started on that one yet.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[uax6]

The second picture down with the creamy look to it certainly looks good to my eyes, but I'm guessing that might be a trick of the light....

I think you could probably give it a proper coat of paint and then run thinned black into the joins, and then dirty it up a bit more. When I tried out the scriber tool I did a matchboarded coach end. I gave that several thick coats of rattle can damask red and the scribes were still visible, so running a bit of thinned black would pick them out a bit more.

 

The valence seems to be very long, are you sure it's clear of the structure gauge?

 

Andy G

 

Edit:

Are the sketches some sort of coach or station building? They look familiar somehow....

Edited May 6, 2016 by uax6

[ChrisN]

The second picture down with the creamy look to it certainly looks good to my eyes, but I'm guessing that might be a trick of the light....

I think you could probably give it a proper coat of paint and then run thinned black into the joins, and then dirty it up a bit more. When I tried out the scriber tool I did a matchboarded coach end. I gave that several thick coats of rattle can damask red and the scribes were still visible, so running a bit of thinned black would pick them out a bit more.

 

The valence seems to be very long, are you sure it's clear of the structure gauge?

 

Andy G

 

Edit:

Are the sketches some sort of coach or station building? They look familiar somehow....

 

Andy,

The second picture does look more creamy but to be honest I only noticed once it was posted.  The original seen now in daylight does also appear off white.  I am concerned that if I fiddle any more it will go past 'acceptable' to 'it was quite good' to 'I really need to start painting again'.  I sell T shirts that say, 'just one more tweak..........    Grr start again!'

 

I had to guess the length of the valences but if you look at this in proportion it does not look too bad, it seems to come down as far as the original.

 

 

it is back from the platform edge so will not foul anything.  There is just enough space between the end of the shelter and the platform edge for the valence to drip cold water down the necks of people getting onto a train.  Quite prototypical! 

 

The drawings are of two coaches, but Cambrian ones that have no tumblehomes, and for other reasons which will become obvious as I build them, I think are fairly easy to scratchbuild. 

[uax6]

Are they ribbed sided then? If so they must be a bit Highlandy in looks!

 

Andy G

[ChrisN]

Are they ribbed sided then? If so they must be a bit Highlandy in looks!

 

Andy G

 

They have outside framing.  They are 'Parliamentary' coaches and were produced as thirds and brake thirds.  That did not last into the 20th century I think but they were around in 1895, although I cannot put my hand on why I know that immediately.  I have seen pictures of similar from north of the boarder.

[Edwardian]

 

As you may be able to see I am in grave danger of actually finishing it, although there is still a way to go yet.

 

 

 

Yes, you are!  And that's good to see. Shaping up nicely.

 

Contrary to that Idiot Song, happiness is very definitely not a platform shelter without a roof!

[mike morley]

  I sell T shirts that say, 'just one more tweak..........    Grr start again!'

 

. 

 

Put me down for two, please.

[ChrisN]

Yes, you are!  And that's good to see. Shaping up nicely.

 

Contrary to that Idiot Song, happiness is very definitely not a platform shelter without a roof!

 

Well, as of now the last plank has gone on the roof!  I need to put the planking around the edge.  Planks one mm longer would not have done any harm.  My feet fit my bed as well. 

[MikeOxon]

..........................

 

Now time for a 'Spot the Difference' between two pictures.  If you look carefully there are 34 of them.

 

.........................

I'll take your word for the 34 differences!  It looks very good to me and Mr Price should be pleased.

 

Those coach sides look like excellent candidates for a Silhouette cutter.  The absence of 'tumble-home' makes things a lot easier.

 

Mike

[ChrisN]

I'll take your word for the 34 differences!  It looks very good to me and Mr Price should be pleased.

 

Those coach sides look like excellent candidates for a Silhouette cutter.  The absence of 'tumble-home' makes things a lot easier.

 

Mike

 

Mike,

The '34 differences' are the number of 'planks' on the top.

 

I am fairly certain that I can do it by hand.  I might have even started tonight except for a long phone call to Mr BT to try and sort out my phone.  The door windows I will cut to size and the outside framing should hide it if it is too big.  The windows I will cut too small and file them out towards the frames.  Simple?  I will probably use 30 thou plasticard.  I had thought of 20 but I think it may be a little flimsy, except of course it will be braced.  Ummm.  The ends will be 20 thou though.

 

I have some ratio four wheelers which I will use for the chassis.  I have almost made a Holden third class coach.  This was a GWR coach that ran on the widened lines to Farringdon or Moorgate I think, but never up the connecting tunnel into Liverpool Street to make a 19th Century Crossrail.  It is 25ft long, which is the same length as this and I have a floor template for it which I will use.  I may need, no I ought to modify it but it may not be possible  We shall see.

 

I have sent Mr Price out looking for 'tar paper' just to keep him quiet.

[Donw]

With regard to the drawings

I do have a copy of the Albion class 2-4-0 mentioned by Jonathon it is the 14mm:1ft one. Peter Korrison got it for me probably via Tudor Watkins.

Model railway illustrated had a drawing of an 0-6-0 sharpie and an article by Mike Lloyd.

MRN published a drawing of Plynlimon many years ago 

I should have all three somewhere but all the railway stuff is currently packed away and likely to be so for some time.

Don

[ChrisN]

With regard to the drawings

I do have a copy of the Albion class 2-4-0 mentioned by Jonathon it is the 14mm:1ft one. Peter Korrison got it for me probably via Tudor Watkins.

Model railway illustrated had a drawing of an 0-6-0 sharpie and an article by Mike Lloyd.

MRN published a drawing of Plynlimon many years ago 

I should have all three somewhere but all the railway stuff is currently packed away and likely to be so for some time.

Don

 

Don,

I would be grateful for copies of all of those, as much information as possible would be helpful.  There is no rush as loco building, apart from the class 61 is a way away at the moment.

 

Thank you,

[Northroader]

On the subject of drawings, coaches this time, do you have a copy of the article by M E Morton Lloyd on CamR coaches? I have a clipping of it on file, but there's nothing to take a reference from. I suspect it was from the Model Railway Constructor, but quite when I couldn't say. I'm posting a copy of the drawings page so you know what I'm going on about, but contact me if you fancy a copy.

[corneliuslundie]

Have you seen the photo of the Newtown shelter valance in 'Rails through Talerddig@, page 116? Perhaps it is a good job it is second world war rather than earlier.

The HMRS has four drawings of 4-wheel carriages as follows:

   

3rd Class Saloon, 14ft 6ins w/b, 29ft 4ins o/a. Side & End Elevations;  

General Arrangement  dwg. no. 63837

5097 
 

Brake Van, 14ft 6ins w/b. Side & End Elevations;  

Arrangement  dwg. no. 6

1968-07-25

13445 

First Class, 13ft 2ins w/b, 26ft 11ins o/a. Side & End Elevations;  

General Arrangement  dwg. no. 63838

5095 
 

Third Class, 5 Compartments, 13ft w/b, 24ft o/b;  

General Arrangement  dwg. no. 957

1864-04-06

21262 

If any of them excite you I can talk to the drawings team on 21 May when I am at Butterley for the AGM and get the cost of copies.

I'll also try to find out if anyone at the WRRC knows whether the drawings illustrated above are the same as the ones it holds in its Mike Lloyd collection. If they are then the WRRC set will be much larger scale, though i don't know about availability.

Jonathan

[mike morley]

I've got drawing 63838, the 1st class saloons, and 63837, the 3rd class saloon and neither of them is a conventional scale.  63838 has distorted slightly and varies between a smidgeon over 7mm scale and a tad over 8mm scale, depending on which dimension you look at.  63837 appears to be more consistent at a tad over 8mm.  (4 smidgeons = 1 tad.  4 tads = 1 gnats whisker) 

 

63837 has a BR C&W drawing office stamp dated 5th Aug 1965 in one corner.  The other one has been stamped but it isn't readable.

 

Chris.  I'm never going to use either of these drawing so, if they are of any use to you, I'll bring them to ExpoEM for you.