Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Donw said:

Hello Chris

 

The first house we bought in Ironbridge had a Coalbrookdale range the works were just over the hill. AS was normal in a small cottage the range was in the main downstairs room the living area. The other smaller room was the scullery which had very little in it and was used for food preparation. The other means of heating water was in an outhouse with a large iron bowl with a fire underneath all built in for doing the washing. The council bloke doing grants wanted the range taken out and the old windows replaced so we said no thanks you. Marion cleaned all the rust off the old range and painted it black when we sold the place it was a 'period feature'.

 

Don

 

Thank you Don,

That is a lovely story, although I am sure it is better in the retelling than in the living through it.

[ChrisN]

12 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I it helps,, I had a very similar set up in the last house that I owned.

The slate mantelpiece was just over 5 feet from the floor.

 

Thank you, that is really helpful.

 

Looking at the picture I guessitmated that the hot plate was about 2ft off the ground, lower than a stove, so it would seem about right, but I shall do the calculations. 

[Nick Gough]

From the 1932 GWR Timetable book:

 

 

 

The 1958 Western Region version:

 

 

 

[ChrisN]

28 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

From the 1932 GWR Timetable book:

 

 

 

The 1958 Western Region version:

 

 

 

 

Nick,

This is absolutely brilliant!  The list is quite extensive, but I am not sure chocolate bars in a hamper on a hot sunny day with children is exactly what you want!  It confirms some things I thought but adds a lot more.

 

Now did the refreshment rooms at Treath Mawr do meals?  A breakfast hamper for the 7:41 (mrn) for Machynlleth, through coach to Euston, would be useful as I doubt the local hotels would do early breakfasts, but they might.  The first train was 7:37 (mrn) from Dolgelley so I doubt the station would have been open before 7:00 am anyway.  Where would they keep the meat?  The kitchen does not appear to have a pantry/larder to keep things cool.  Most would be done through the summer months when tourists were there, and I assume the Refreshment Rooms would have done their bit to attract custom to the town, although they would not care if their customers were at Barmouth or Traeth Mawr, although the local managers would I suppose.  

 

Does this affect what I model?  Maybe not.  It does affect how many staff the Refreshment Room employs, so the number modelled, but more than six at any one time would get in each others way.  It does affect the reality, as it is good to know what is feasible.  Also, I have some cuttings from the Traeth Mawr Trumpet, of interviews with random members of the public, mostly done on 22nd March 1895 by Robert Thomson the Editor, and the journalist, Stanley Bagshaw, which at the moment do not include any from the Refreshment Room, which of course might help, but some just might turn up.

[corneliuslundie]

I think there is something about the restaurant staff at Moat Lane (though mid 20th century) in the book Caersws: a railway village. I'll have to get it out.

Jonathan

[Donw]

In the 1904 Cambrian timetable there is an advert from Spiers and Pond Ltd Refreshment Contractors to the Cmabrian Railways Ltd. Amongst other places it mentions rooms at Barmouth and Barmouth Junction.  It also advises that Luncheon Baskets Hot or Cold  for 2/6d exclusive of drinks can be obtained from Oswestry, Welshpool, Machynelleth, Aberystwyth and Tea Baskets single 1/- double 1/6 can be obtained from those stations and Barmouth Junction, Portmadoc and in summer Barmouth Town Station. No details of the contents are given orders should be given to the guard as soon as possible.  

 

Don

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think there is something about the restaurant staff at Moat Lane (though mid 20th century) in the book Caersws: a railway village. I'll have to get it out.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I do have that book, although I do not have the last two chapters, the book I bought had the two chapters before that repeated.  I will dig it out and have a look too.

 

(I remember a story about ladies delivering hampers to a train which then went off and took them all away, leaving their colleague with all the remaining customers and a mountain of washing up.  She had managed to do it all but was in floods of tears when they got back.)

[ChrisN]

43 minutes ago, Donw said:

In the 1904 Cambrian timetable there is an advert from Spiers and Pond Ltd Refreshment Contractors to the Cmabrian Railways Ltd. Amongst other places it mentions rooms at Barmouth and Barmouth Junction.  It also advises that Luncheon Baskets Hot or Cold  for 2/6d exclusive of drinks can be obtained from Oswestry, Welshpool, Machynelleth, Aberystwyth and Tea Baskets single 1/- double 1/6 can be obtained from those stations and Barmouth Junction, Portmadoc and in summer Barmouth Town Station. No details of the contents are given orders should be given to the guard as soon as possible.  

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  I have not got that timetable as I have always thought that as I have 1895 ones I do not need it, so thank you, that is very useful.

 

My other question is if you were travelling from Traeth Mawr to London would you get a hamper at where you started or say at Ruabon or further on?  Not looking for an answer, just thinking out loud.

[Donw]

Well Chris a lot depends on the time of the train and how long the Journey was to Last. Going all the way to london would you be changing trains or are you booked on a through coach.  Now if you were catching a the 8.25 from Traeth Mawr getting to Shrewsbury at 12:20 the onward depature is at 1:33  so you could have lunch at Shrewsbury I think.  However the 12:20  would arrive at Shrewsbury about 4:41 with time for tea but lunch would be best in a Lunch Basket from Bathmouth Junction

You would of course be arriving in London quite late  around 11pm for the 12:20. One would hope that from your through carriage you could get to the dining car on the London train or would there be no corridor! 

BTW I think from Traeth Mawrthe quickest route to London would be via Shrewsbury for both Paddington and Euston. Interestingly you go on a different route from Wellington to Wolverhampton via Shifnal on the GWR or Stafford on the LNWR. I remember friends in Much Wenlock saying the GWR route was quicker because of that. Although in 1904 the cut off through Aynho was not available so the LNWR wasn't that far behind at Euston.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

13 minutes ago, Donw said:

Well Chris a lot depends on the time of the train and how long the Journey was to Last. Going all the way to london would you be changing trains or are you booked on a through coach.  Now if you were catching a the 8.25 from Traeth Mawr getting to Shrewsbury at 12:20 the onward depature is at 1:33  so you could have lunch at Shrewsbury I think.  However the 12:20  would arrive at Shrewsbury about 4:41 with time for tea but lunch would be best in a Lunch Basket from Bathmouth Junction

You would of course be arriving in London quite late  around 11pm for the 12:20. One would hope that from your through carriage you could get to the dining car on the London train or would there be no corridor! 

BTW I think from Traeth Mawrthe quickest route to London would be via Shrewsbury for both Paddington and Euston. Interestingly you go on a different route from Wellington to Wolverhampton via Shifnal on the GWR or Stafford on the LNWR. I remember friends in Much Wenlock saying the GWR route was quicker because of that. Although in 1904 the cut off through Aynho was not available so the LNWR wasn't that far behind at Euston.

 

Don

 

Don,

In 1895 Winter timetable, the 7:43 departure had a through coach for Euston which got in at 17:15, whereas the Dolgelley train left at 9:45 with a through coach that got to Paddington at 17:45.  The LNWR through coach from Euston left at 9:30, and at the beginning of 1895 got to Traeth Mawr at 18:20 and had to wait until 18:55 for the through coach that left Paddington at 9:50/10:00.  The GWR went via Ruabon.

 

To my horror I found out the other day that 1895 was the first year that the GWR used through coaches on its Northern Expresses, which probably means the summer.  This means that in March 1895 they were being run as 'trials' or 'experiments' but does explain why they, at the start did not run to Barmouth and that an extra platform with track realignment happened at Traeth Mawr.  (It is in the relevant book somewhere, I will see if I can find a copy 🙂  ) 

 

 I still need to get to Kew and look at the GWR train formations for 1895 which should have the details.  How I actually find out about the LNWR, MSLR and the other joint line that probably had GWR coaches I am not sure.  All the information I have is from the page you sent me which is 1904 I think, but it appears things might have been different earlier.

 

[ChrisN]

I have loaded the picture of the range into Silhouette, not to cut it, but to do measurements.  Now the picture has an obvious slant, so all measurements are suspect, but taking the ratio of the height of the stove, to the height of the mantlepiece, and assuming that the stove is 2ft, that makes the mantlepiece 5 ft 3", which as @MrWolf said his was just over five foot, is good enough for me.

 

Serious thought is going into these, there will be two of them, and they will need to happen soon as they are integral to the building.  (Tables chairs etc can be added afterwards, but not chimneys, butler sinks work surfaces.  Oh, they were not called that then, er counters.(?) )

[corneliuslundie]

No corridor coaches on the Cambrian in 1895, and only on the main line later as I don't think the 54 ft 6 in. carriages worked on the coast line. None of the 45 footers had through connections to adjacent vehicles.

So to get to a dining car you would need to change carriages at a stop.

Jonathan

[Nick Gough]

16 hours ago, ChrisN said:

My other question is if you were travelling from Traeth Mawr to London would you get a hamper at where you started or say at Ruabon or further on?  Not looking for an answer, just thinking out loud.

 

If I were travelling, I would also consider the train times and when I would be wanting to eat.

 

Early morning I might want to take a breakfast basket with me, but would Traeth Maewr refreshment room be open for the 7:43 train? If it was open would they have had time to prepare a fresh basket? Surely they wouldn't serve one from the previous day?

 

If I were planning to eat later in the journey it would be nicer to pick up a fresh basket en route.

 

It's a pity there's so little information available on railway refreshment rooms and catering.

 

I have an interesting paperback written by a Penzance dining car attendant working in the 1950s/60s:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/At-Your-Service-Railway-Working/dp/1857941314

 

You could always use scenes from 'Brief Encounter' as your inspiration!

Edited May 4, 2022 by Nick Gough
Replacing truncated Amazon link

[Donw]

Chris

the timetable for trains via Dolgelley is further back. Obviously the Cambrian would push the Welshpool route greater mileage on the Cambrian. The Dolgelley route does seem quicker the 10:15 from Barmouth get to Padd 5:20pm the 12:40 at 8:45 the later has a through coach from Pwllheli. There is also a through coach for Euston via Afon Wen fromPortmaddoc the 9:40am from Portmaddoc will get you to Euston for 5:30

 

Don

 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 02/05/2022 at 17:50, ChrisN said:

I had assumed that the heating the water for washing up would have taken place in the kitchen but now it could quite easily be done on one side of these ranges.

Some ranges had incorporated hot water tanks on the side, so hot water was always available.

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Some ranges had incorporated hot water tanks on the side, so hot water was always available.

 

It was actually quite common, There would be the fire grate in the center, an oven to one side and a water tank on the other with a big brass tap to drain off water.

 

 

 

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Some ranges had incorporated hot water tanks on the side, so hot water was always available.

 

2 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

It was actually quite common, There would be the fire grate in the center, an oven to one side and a water tank on the other with a big brass tap to drain off water.

 

 

 

 

Thank you both that is really useful.

 

 

If you look at the right hand side you will notice that there is a hole which now is obvious that there was a tap there for hot water.  I assume that it was not drinking water but water for washing up.  It is also interesting that the tap is only half way down which I suppose means that it will not run dry.  This also appears to have drawers beneath the oven and the water tank, which are in the wrong place for dampers.  They are not on the ones posted but I have seen them on others, I wonder if they were for warming or similar.

 

I note that the ranges appear to be in a sale, I shall have to try and persuade the wife she really wants one.  What go be better, even the biggest is only 61 shillings and 6 pence.  A whole shilling off!  Mind you, as it is a shilling off each size you save relatively more money in percentage terms with the smaller ones.

 

I also note, with slight relief that it is not standing on legs.  I did spend about an hour working out how I was going to make these, one either side of the wall, and have started to mark carboard and isolate the correct plastic strip.  4mm taps will be interesting, but I need to crack that for the butler sink.

 

Just to let you know that eventually I intend to do all the interiors of all the houses, so there will be more ranges but they are tiny, and after making some chairs and tables I really needed to do something else to stop myself going barmy.  (Bought 4mm furniture sometimes seems a cheat, but a good one.)  

 

Still, in the best Blue Peter style, here is one I did earlier.

 

 

Unpainted so you can see the detail.

 

 

Painted.

Edited May 4, 2022 by ChrisN

[MrWolf]

Nice job with the interiors, the only house on my layout has its windows facing the backscene (luckily!) I did go a bit mad and put a stove, desk, notice board etc in the weighbridge.

 

All joking aside, I miss having a range in the back room, open fire in the living room and a stove in the workshop.

Although I had radiators, I never used them, firewood is free if you're prepared to saw it up, the house was always toasty and never suffered from damp.

[ChrisN]

14 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Nice job with the interiors, the only house on my layout has its windows facing the backscene (luckily!) I did go a bit mad and put a stove, desk, notice board etc in the weighbridge.

 

All joking aside, I miss having a range in the back room, open fire in the living room and a stove in the workshop.

Although I had radiators, I never used them, firewood is free if you're prepared to saw it up, the house was always toasty and never suffered from damp.

 

Thank you.  

 

Now promise not to laugh.  When I retired I decided, as I knew we were going to move, I thought it would be nice to have an open fire, and I began to look forward to it.  It was not on the list of essentials for a house.........  You can guess what has happened.  The house we now live in does not even have a chimney.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by ChrisN

[Simond]

Ah, but, you’re probably safer.  
 

It seems that wood burning stoves, lovely though they are to sit by, emit more nasties than a jumbo jet at take off…

 

(this may be a slight exaggeration :) )

Edited May 5, 2022 by Simond

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Simond said:

Ah, but, you’re probably safer.  
 

It seems that wood burning stoves, lovely though they are to sit by, emit more nasties than a jumbo jet at take off…

 

(this may be a slight exaggeration :) )

 

Only if you're burning old tyres and plastic. Dry,, unpainted timber is just fine.

It's just garbage spouted by the same people who are touting nuclear power as a green alternative.

Still, if we listen to a bunch of angry middle class seventeen year olds who believe the internet is gospel, then we can be cold but guilt free, tucking into a nice vegan snack grown on the site of a rain forest and flown half way round the world,, safe in the knowledge that we haven't personally burned any carbon....😆

[Simond]

Believe what you want to believe:

 

https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/wood-burning-stoves/article/wood-burning-stoves-what-you-need-to-know/stoves-and-pollution-aIPXC8g7lbu5

DEFRA's Clean Air Strategy states that wood-burning stove emissions are now the biggest source of PM pollution in the UK, making up 38% of UK air pollution.  

I don’t think WHICH is overtly political, and I don’t believe that DEFRA are a bunch of angry middle class seventeen year olds…

 

anyway, it’s not the point of the thread, so I’ll say no more.

 

[MrWolf]

I was kidding, more or less.

 

But if you want to believe the government's pet experts, just think back three decades or so to when they told us that diesel cars were cleaner, greener and cheaper to run.

 

Plus when you're tied to increasingly more expensive gas and electricity supplies and being taxed on them, those in charge and those profiting  would rather folks have to choose between heating and eating rather than heat their homes for free.

It's obviously a coincidence that there's moves afoot to ban the sale of woodburners just as energy costs rocket? 

 

Anyway, we're still allowed differing world views for now, so I'll leave it there.

 

Sorry for the thread drift @ChrisN

 

Back to model stoves. When I can get at my book collection (boxed up from the house moving),, I'm sure that I have seen something in one of my Cambrian books on the catering arrangements and not just the tea car that met its end at Abermule.

 

[ChrisN]

19 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Sorry for the thread drift @ChrisN

 

Back to model stoves. When I can get at my book collection (boxed up from the house moving),, I'm sure that I have seen something in one of my Cambrian books on the catering arrangements and not just the tea car that met its end at Abermule.

 

 

Thank you.  I will have to dig out my Talerddig book, and see if I can find the section @corneliuslundie mentioned.

 

My actual ranges between the sides I am making about 3ft, scale that is, so I was thinking that about 15" deep was about right, and I was going to leave another 3", or rather a thickness of mounting card behind it as the depth of the chimney.  I have come to that size as the one in Palmer's Park is obviously bigger than the one at the Lynton and Barnstable, which from the photo I posted is as deep as a magazine, which is about 11".

[ChrisN]

4 hours ago, Simond said:

Ah, but, you’re probably safer.  
 

It seems that wood burning stoves, lovely though they are to sit by, emit more nasties than a jumbo jet at take off…

 

(this may be a slight exaggeration :) )

 

Simon,

I am on a take off flight path as well, so it would have been a double whammy.  🙂