Possible ideas for scratchbuilt 16'6" wagon?

[Spitfire2865]

Hello everyone. My recent purchase of Cambrian's C34 under frame kit has left me a bit stumped on ideas.

What railway wagons could I possibly scratch build that would fit that length chassis? I was thinking maybe a salt wagon or some odd prototype but can anyone provide me with some ideas or options. Since Google is pretty useless for exact searches of something like this, I figured maybe someone with some railway books or info could help me. If possible, photos or drawings will be very helpful.

Might be a little limiting, but Id like pre 1936 wagons, although Im not going to limit to a company. Anything will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[jwealleans]

The HMRS website has their drawings list and a number are viewable. You might find some inspiration there.

 

You could have a search through existing/preserved wagons and see if that sparks any ideas,

[Spitfire2865]

The HMRS website has their drawings list and a number are viewable. You might find some inspiration there.You could have a search through existing/preserved wagons and see if that sparks any ideas,

As nice as the search is, there isnt any information on overall body length. Measurements would be the most useful for scratchbuilding. But Ill maybe go through it again at some point in hopes something is useful.

[Nick Holliday]

I think you will have a long and fruitless search for an accurate match.  The problem is that the chassis is based upon the RCH 1923 standards, which, although adequate for PO coal wagons, had long been superseded by the mainline companies.  In particular the 9' 0" wheelbase was normally lengthened to 9' 6" or 10' 0" by the end of the 19th century, combined with longer bodies, which had been around 15'.  After a quick search of various wagon books, the best fit I could find was various North British Railway wagons, several of which retained the 9' 0" wheelbase with a 16' 3" length over headstocks. That is only a 1 mm discrepancy on the model, an error of only 1.5%, which would not really be noticeable.  One interesting design is a covered van with vertical paneling - something a little bit different.  Your only accurate alternative is to model a PO wagon of some sort, but that will hardly stand out from the various kits that are already available, including salt vans, and many of the more interesting designs would probably pre-date the 1923 standards.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

MR Tatlow's lovely book on the LNER wagon stock supplies a few possibles.

GN 16' light machinery wagon flat

GC 16' 3 plank dropside

GE 15'11" opens and 16'2" vans. (How about a louvered and clerestoried butter van?)

[Spitfire2865]

I think you will have a long and fruitless search for an accurate match. The problem is that the chassis is based upon the RCH 1923 standards, which, although adequate for PO coal wagons, had long been superseded by the mainline companies. In particular the 9' 0" wheelbase was normally lengthened to 9' 6" or 10' 0" by the end of the 19th century, combined with longer bodies, which had been around 15'. After a quick search of various wagon books, the best fit I could find was various North British Railway wagons, several of which retained the 9' 0" wheelbase with a 16' 3" length over headstocks. That is only a 1 mm discrepancy on the model, an error of only 1.5%, which would not really be noticeable. One interesting design is a covered van with vertical paneling - something a little bit different. Your only accurate alternative is to model a PO wagon of some sort, but that will hardly stand out from the various kits that are already available, including salt vans, and many of the more interesting designs would probably pre-date the 1923 standards.

I might seem crazy but I wouldnt be too put off by the idea of scratchbuilding a PO wagon And hand lettering the sides. I rather like painting anyway. Would you know of any companies which would work for the wagon? I do like building things myself. Preferably a simpler livery around the midlands region?

[Nick Holliday]

The trouble with the GE van suggestions is that they all seemed to have a steel underframe, whereas the kit is of a timber one.However, that GC three plank is a good match, as Tatlow gives some as being 16' 6" in length and built by Charles Roberts, the only down-side is that they look similar to the Midland dropside wagon, which the OP has had a struggle with.

[Nick Holliday]

I might seem crazy but I wouldnt be too put off by the idea of scratchbuilding a PO wagon And hand lettering the sides. I rather like painting anyway. Would you know of any companies which would work for the wagon? I do like building things myself. Preferably a simpler livery around the midlands region?

Some 200,000 PO wagons were built after 1918, many of which would have had this type of underframe, the alternative being the steel variety, so you have plenty of choice.  I would suggest trawling through the various books on PO wagons to find a design which is slightly different from the offerings of the kit manufacturers and the RTR makers, to make scratch-building worth while.

[Spitfire2865]

The trouble with the GE van suggestions is that they all seemed to have a steel underframe, whereas the kit is of a timber one.However, that GC three plank is a good match, as Tatlow gives some as being 16' 6" in length and built by Charles Roberts, the only down-side is that they look similar to the Midland dropside wagon, which the OP has had a struggle with.

Th only problem I had with that kit was damaged parts. But actually last night, I went ahead and fitted the repaired brake lever and it seemed to work. Havent yet checked it since I braced it to set last night.

[Spitfire2865]

Some 200,000 PO wagons were built after 1918, many of which would have had this type of underframe, the alternative being the steel variety, so you have plenty of choice.  I would suggest trawling through the various books on PO wagons to find a design which is slightly different from the offerings of the kit manufacturers and the RTR makers, to make scratch-building worth while.

Im not too concerned with making a redundant scratch build. I get joy out of making something unique to me.

The biggest problem I have is finding good photos of the wagons. I dont have access to all the books and google is pretty useless with finding pictures that are of the prototype.

[Nick Holliday]

Sorry, I hadn't noticed your address, which probably does make research a bit difficult.  I was going to suggest getting hold of John Hayes' book The 4mm Coal wagon, as it contains lots of photos of suitable wagons, and he takes pains in pointing out how they vary from the "standard" offerings.

[Spitfire2865]

Sorry, I hadn't noticed your address, which probably does make research a bit difficult. I was going to suggest getting hold of John Hayes' book The 4mm Coal wagon, as it contains lots of photos of suitable wagons, and he takes pins in pointing out how they vary from the "standard" offerings.

Do you know anywhere I could find detailed info or pictures on the internet?

At times I wish I lived in England. The ease of research and obtaining materials would be nice.

[Nick Holliday]

Not sure if I am in a position to give a good answer, as I rely on a growing printed library, thanks largely to Keith Turton's series, for PO wagons.  One place to look might be Paul Bartlett's superb photo collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/privateownerwagon which has 60 pictures of PO wagons, as they survived into the fifties. The subject is vast but it is unlikely that there will be much coverage on the internet, although a Google search for "railway wagon drawings" turns up isolated gems, such as Helston Gas Company and a history of the Gloucester wagon company.  For company wagons the coverage is equally sparse, the LNWR Society does some nice articles with both photos and drawings, and http://www.champwilde.f9.co.uk/gwdrawings/wagonindex.html has numerous GWR drawings.  An interesting website http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm has lots of drawings and livery details for railway companies and PO stock, but the drawings are probably only intended as a guide, primarily for N gauge I believe.  It can be worth looking at kit manufacturers' websites, including other scales, as sometimes they use drawings in their catalogues, or, such as in the case of Connoisseur  Models http://www.jimmcgeown.com/ you can download instructions which sometimes include detailed drawings.

[Nick Holliday]

Looking through Bill Hudson's PO wagon books, I found a few which fit the chassis, at least dimensionally, that are slightly different from the run-of-the-mill PO coal wagon and for which drawings and photos are available.  A nine-plank high Hydrochloric Acid Jar Wagon for Chance & Hunt, perhaps, or a smaller, 6 plank high, Muriatic Acid Wagon for Hunt Bros. or a five plank wagon for the carrying of tarred granite?  The first two are actually earlier than 1923, so there may be slight changes needed to the framing, the last is from 1928.  If any of those sound interesting I could try to send you further details.

[Spitfire2865]

I really dont mind scratchbuilding a run of the mill 7 or 8 plank. I was going to buy one anyway, might as well build it myself. And Id like to have a go at lettering myself. My problem is nice photos of the liveries. Without good pictures or good descriptions, I cant really do that.

[Nick Holliday]

You are rather opening up Pandora's box now.  With over 100,000 suitable PO wagons, and probably 3,000 possible liveries to pick from. you might want to narrow down the field a bit, unless you are happy just to run with a random example for which there is a good photo. In the 25 or so books published on the subject, each probably contains between 100 and 200 photos or drawings, so that does provide a wide selection, although only around half would be suitable for your chassis.  Of course, if your layout is set after 1939 and the pooling of PO wagons, the origin of the prototype doesn't matter, but if earlier, then you may want to decide what best suits the location of your layout - Scottish wagons tended to stay north of the border, colliery and large agents' wagons might appear almost anywhere, whereas local traders would be confined to particular areas or routes.  May I suggest you look at the Lightmoor Press website - http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/ - they have a link to a comprehensive index of all PO wagon books  - there may be a particular name or place that catches your eye, which could then be followed through to see if it fits.  In addition, by clicking on the ...more for each of their PO wagon book titles, that takes you to a couple of photos from the book that may be useful.  Another website I found just by trawling Google Images was http://buckhaven.info/html/private_owner_wagons.html which has on it over 20 pictures of Scottish PO wagons, many of which are very different from their Sassenach cousins, but, as I mentioned, would not be seen in England or Wales before 1939.

[Spitfire2865]

You are rather opening up Pandora's box now.  With over 100,000 suitable PO wagons, and probably 3,000 possible liveries to pick from. you might want to narrow down the field a bit, unless you are happy just to run with a random example for which there is a good photo. In the 25 or so books published on the subject, each probably contains between 100 and 200 photos or drawings, so that does provide a wide selection, although only around half would be suitable for your chassis.  Of course, if your layout is set after 1939 and the pooling of PO wagons, the origin of the prototype doesn't matter, but if earlier, then you may want to decide what best suits the location of your layout - Scottish wagons tended to stay north of the border, colliery and large agents' wagons might appear almost anywhere, whereas local traders would be confined to particular areas or routes.  May I suggest you look at the Lightmoor Press website - http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/ - they have a link to a comprehensive index of all PO wagon books  - there may be a particular name or place that catches your eye, which could then be followed through to see if it fits.  In addition, by clicking on the ...more for each of their PO wagon book titles, that takes you to a couple of photos from the book that may be useful.  Another website I found just by trawling Google Images was http://buckhaven.info/html/private_owner_wagons.html which has on it over 20 pictures of Scottish PO wagons, many of which are very different from their Sassenach cousins, but, as I mentioned, would not be seen in England or Wales before 1939.

After searching a large majority of yesterday, I found a very nice picture of a PO wagon which I already have paint of an almost exact color(judging by the RTR version) although there are differences between the prototype and RTR, which I guess gives it more meaning.

Its A.J.Salter coal merchants.

Heres a picture from the internet.

And heres the RTR

The side strapping is ever so different. And the shading on the S is different too. I know Im just pointing out very slight differences but anything to substantiate building this from scratch will help me. Haha.

Heres what I have so far.

Cambrian kits are next to impossible to get to sit right. So much cutting and shaving. Though I think this one is even less 3 legged than my last! And even that one is pretty flat.

Assembly was interesting as the locating tabs for the headstocks was getting in the way of the coupling hook spring. Took me 2 failed gluing attempts and a bit of swearing to realize my error. The headstocks were about 2mm too long to fit between the headstocks too. And Ill need to repaint the wheels. I used a white paint pen, which works well until the tip dries.

What do you think? Would this wagon be seen around the midlands area? Maybe a little closer to London?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Some folk believe likely routing for a PO wagon may be got from the registration plate with a railway company. But that's no certain guide, and may just reflect the wagon builder's location. Also a coal merchant could dispatch wagons to any colliery, in response to customer demands for particular coal grades. If a regular source of supply went unavailable, the wagon might then go well off its normal beat.

 

Until the 1939 pooling of PO coal wagons it is always likely to be in locations between colliery loading points and the merchant's yard(s). Branch to colliery, marshalling yard, main line haul, another marshalling yard, pick up goods to owner's coal yard. And repeat in reverse for the empty movement. Research on AJ Salter's trade may provide some clues.

 

After 1939, increasingly tatty, but could be seen literally 'anywhere' on the network, as pooled wagons they were utilised indiscriminately.

[Nick Holliday]

I don't know if this is your source of the photo, but if not, there are interesting comments on the wagon, and others from Salters, if you click on the photo.

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/Pope.htm

 

A similar wagon is in A G Thomas's sketch book No 2, where the number if 47, and the address is given as 8 Camley Street. Strangely, that is actually the same address as Cambridge Street, for some reason the name was changed in the thirties.

The location is right next door to St Pancras station, and the coal depot of the same name (Cambridge Street) was an unusual set up, as the road ran right through the middle, and on the west side was the Midland depot, and on the east, the Great Northern.  They seem to be coal drops, served by turntables and traversers, hence the bottom doors on the wagons would have been essential. (Oddly the OS map, available to view at the National Library of Scotland - this link may work http://maps.nls.uk/view/101201466 - describes them as "Coal Shoots")

I suspect that these wagons would have spent most of their time shuttling between the depot and the Derbyshire or Leicestershire or Notts coal fields, so would have been seen on the relevant mainline (I can only guess which, although the LNER registration probably implies the Great Northern route) and the branchlines serving the various collieries.  There might have been some trade in the London area, but most would probably have been distributed by road from the depot to customers in the immediate vicinity.

 

Edited to correct link

[Spitfire2865]

The first link doesnt work. Since Im an idiot in the PO wagon area, could you tell me what kind of company would distribute coal to places such as factories or such?

[Nick Holliday]

Since I'm an idiot in the PO wagon area, could you tell me what kind of company would distribute coal to places such as factories or such?

Virtually any kind of company could supply coal to a factory.  A lot might depend upon the size of the factory - the larger ones might be happier dealing directly with a colliery, whilst smaller ones might be content with placing an order with a local trader.  If you follow my first link and then go "Home" and then scroll down, there is a photo of a wagon owned by a factory, to carry their own coal - the Huntley & Palmer Biscuit factory.  Some factories had their own railway system with locos, such as Ford and Garratts of Leiston, not to mention the various breweries, especially those around Burton. 

[Spitfire2865]

Virtually any kind of company could supply coal to a factory.  A lot might depend upon the size of the factory - the larger ones might be happier dealing directly with a colliery, whilst smaller ones might be content with placing an order with a local trader.  If you follow my first link and then go "Home" and then scroll down, there is a photo of a wagon owned by a factory, to carry their own coal - the Huntley & Palmer Biscuit factory.  Some factories had their own railway system with locos, such as Ford and Garratts of Leiston, not to mention the various breweries, especially those around Burton.

 

So could a a London based coal trader have any chance of delivering to a factory some way off? Im trying to decide if I should change livery or continue and hold to rule 1, My railway, my rules.

[Nick Holliday]

As you say, apply Rule 1.  However, in answer to your initial question, I suspect it would depend on a) how far some way off actually is, and b) which London based coal trader you mean.  There were a number of large coal dealing organisations based in London, with central London addresses, or based at the Coal Exchange, such as William Cory, and it would possible for one of their wagons to be used for such a delivery, as they effectively operated as agents for various collieries.  I would assume that unloading would be in the hands of the receiving factory, who may have installed means to make unloading easier, if they have a high demand.

 

Where we are looking at the smaller traders, who are actually handling the coal, it becomes more doubtful.  An interesting article in Rail Model Digest covered the history of Herbert Clarke who, like A J Salter, operated from the Cambridge Street depot. They seemed to have a larger fleet than Salter, perhaps 2,000 wagons compared to 250, and they had established several sub-depots around the London area, both sides of the river.  But even then they don't seem to have gone beyond Enfield, which is only 10 miles away.

 

So, the most likely scenario for a factory would be colliery / colliery agent / major national or London coal factor / trader local to factory wagons turning up. However, on a more domestic scale, I have this fantasy that some local big-wig, who works in London, might take a stroll through Mary Popppins' London and place a order at a convenient coal merchant for a load of coal for the domestic hearth, which could result in some unusual wagons turning up at a local station.  I recall reading about just such a delivery by, I think, Pugh & Co, where the coal arrived at the station in one of their wagons, but they had arranged for a local coal man to unload and deliver the coal to the house.  It should be remembered that there were more coal merchants operating without their own wagons than there were who did run them, hence the number of colliery and agents wagons.

[Spitfire2865]

As you say, apply Rule 1.  However, in answer to your initial question, I suspect it would depend on a) how far some way off actually is, and b) which London based coal trader you mean.  There were a number of large coal dealing organisations based in London, with central London addresses, or based at the Coal Exchange, such as William Cory, and it would possible for one of their wagons to be used for such a delivery, as they effectively operated as agents for various collieries.  I would assume that unloading would be in the hands of the receiving factory, who may have installed means to make unloading easier, if they have a high demand.

 

Where we are looking at the smaller traders, who are actually handling the coal, it becomes more doubtful.  An interesting article in Rail Model Digest covered the history of Herbert Clarke who, like A J Salter, operated from the Cambridge Street depot. They seemed to have a larger fleet than Salter, perhaps 2,000 wagons compared to 250, and they had established several sub-depots around the London area, both sides of the river.  But even then they don't seem to have gone beyond Enfield, which is only 10 miles away.

 

So, the most likely scenario for a factory would be colliery / colliery agent / major national or London coal factor / trader local to factory wagons turning up. However, on a more domestic scale, I have this fantasy that some local big-wig, who works in London, might take a stroll through Mary Popppins' London and place a order at a convenient coal merchant for a load of coal for the domestic hearth, which could result in some unusual wagons turning up at a local station.  I recall reading about just such a delivery by, I think, Pugh & Co, where the coal arrived at the station in one of their wagons, but they had arranged for a local coal man to unload and deliver the coal to the house.  It should be remembered that there were more coal merchants operating without their own wagons than there were who did run them, hence the number of colliery and agents wagons.

So I guess if I dont bodge the livery, Ill hold rule 1. I have a Slaters 15' underframe and I'm planning to do the same for that. Scratchbuild a body and hand paint it. Except this time Ill pick a company more to the midlands area. Haha.

Sorry for the constant questions, but what were the chances a 5 plank PO coal wagon would be seen into the 30s? I know 5 planks were largely replaced by 7 planks, but I found many nice pictures of wagons with 15' underframes, most being 5 planks.

[jwealleans]

There's a well known picture of a V2 climbing out of London on an express in 1938. In the background is a loaded coal train. Mainly 7 plankers but there's at least one 5 plank - and just to rub it in, it's lettered for the Clee Hill Granite company.

 

I'm sure other people with reference books to hand can supply more examples.