Platform10 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Hi all, I'm hoping someone can help out here please. I've run into a little problem fixing my Extreme Etchings laser cut windows to a Bachmann suburban coach. In the absence of any instructions I have been using Limonene to fix them. My first three coaches (all suburbans) were treated as they came out of the box, with satisfactory results. My next one, I had resprayed from a Halfords aerosol and this too, was ok. The problem coach is one that I have resprayed with cellulose paint and airbrush. The Limonene doesn't seem to be sticking. Naturally I am thinking the cellulose is making an impenetrable barrier for the solvent to bond to. But I am wondering why I am having problems now and not with the Halfords paint, which I thought was cellulose based also. Before I pull all the windows out and attempt to sand down the insides of the window openings, which threatens to be a horrible sticky mess, does anybody have similar experiences with Limonene, cellulose paint and laser glazed windows, please? Another thought - does the Limonene have a shelf life. Mine's about 3 years old. And is there an alternative to Limonene which doesn't fog the clear plastic? Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Never heard of Limonene so I can't comment on it's suitability. I have used Johnsons Klear to fit EE Lazerglaze with good results. The Lazerglaze is supposed to be more or less an interference fit so it shouldn't need too much 'glue' to hold it in. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Like WaveyDavey, I too have used Klear to fit LaserGlaze and also Clear Humbrol varnish with Great effect. As for the Halfords paints, Most are now made to be suitable for Plastic ( and therefore NOT cellulose based ) as a lot of the areas people use them on on modern vehicles are plastic ( Mirror Covers, Bumpers/Trim Parts, Door Handles, Etc ) and a lot of modern houses have in the deeds a covenant that you will not undertake the spraying of cellulose based products ... ( my 1970's built property has - along with note operating a Motor vehicle repair service on the grounds too ! ). HTH Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platform10 Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Thanks Dave and Mike for your replies. I must admit I have never used Klear, largely because I can never find it in the shops! From what you say, I am keen to try it. For laser glazing would you be applying it by paintbrush into the edge of the window and letting capillary action take it right round? Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 There is also the Deluxe Materials Glue 'n' Glaze http://www.deluxematerials.com/scenicrailwaygluenglaze.html Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platform10 Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks, Phil. Good to have something else to experiment with! Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi, Could it be that the reason you cant find it in the shops is that we modellers are beating the ladies to it and snapping it up to fit glazing with ?!. Seriously though - it is an excellent adhesive for Laserglaze and indeed the traditional SEF 'Flushglaze' and other things such as etched name & number plates not to mention as a gloss coat to enable waterslide decals to adhere to the surface properly. As to your problem - how long is it since you sprayed the cellulose painted coach. The solvent in the paint layer can remain active for anything up to 3 weeks aprox. and if this is happening the effect will be to prevent most non cellulose finishes from drying properly - or in extreme case at all. If its longer than that since you sprayed the coach then its pretty likely that the cellulose finish is too hard and impervious to allow the fixative (or another paint layer) to adhere. As far as i'm aware the Halfords colour range has for some years been formulated in a non cellulose material due to tightening of regulations as to the use of cellulose materials - the dreaded 'elf and safety at work again i'm afraid. Regards Thanks Dave and Mike for your replies. I must admit I have never used Klear, largely because I can never find it in the shops! From what you say, I am keen to try it. For laser glazing would you be applying it by paintbrush into the edge of the window and letting capillary action take it right round? Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks Dave and Mike for your replies. I must admit I have never used Klear, largely because I can never find it in the shops! From what you say, I am keen to try it. For laser glazing would you be applying it by paintbrush into the edge of the window and letting capillary action take it right round? Bob Hi Bob, your assumption would be the Correct one ... And I have used Varnish where I have had the odd window that is a little loose ( I.E. a gentle nudge pushed it through the appeture ). Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 As far as i'm aware the Halfords colour range has for some years been formulated in a non cellulose material due to tightening of regulations as to the use of cellulose materials - the dreaded 'elf and safety at work again i'm afraid. Although in this case it is a benefit to us because as stated they can now be used on plastics! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Although in this case it is a benefit to us because as stated they can now be used on plastics! Hi, You are of course totally right that we as modellers have gained this benefit - perhaps a very rare example of 'elf and safety doing us a favour for once!. May I offer a sugestion - if you have an air brush try spraying a quantity of Halfords spray paint into a container then wait until the bubbling stops (this is the propellent boiling off) then pour the paint into your airbrush and spray your model. You will be amazed at the superb finish that can be obtained due to the much finer spray of the airbrush and the high quality paint. It does seem a bit longwinded but its well worth doing - especially in the smaller scales such as 4mm. Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platform10 Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Well folks, There's some really useful info there in the previous posts. Thank you for your wisdom! Since the original post I have now discovered Klear is marketed as Pledge Multi Surface Wax - so that's today's mission. In answer to Weathering Man's question of how long since I sprayed the cellulose - 1 day. So I take the point about it still being active up to 3 weeks later. But then you say, longer than that and there will be problems with its hardness preventing adhesion. So, what is the optimum time to do anything, please? I quite like the sound of decanting the aerosol contents and using it in an airbrush, but actually I haven't experienced any problems with the celly attacking plastic. Admittedly I am usually spraying over the factory finish, but my latest project involving rubbing down to bare plastic to remove carriage lining hasn't led to anything amiss and I've managed to get a good primer coat on. What I am careful to do, is to spray the first coats as very thin mists so there is a minimum of thinners landing at one time. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Well folks, There's some really useful info there in the previous posts. Thank you for your wisdom! Since the original post I have now discovered Klear is marketed as Pledge Multi Surface Wax - so that's today's mission. In answer to Weathering Man's question of how long since I sprayed the cellulose - 1 day. So I take the point about it still being active up to 3 weeks later. But then you say, longer than that and there will be problems with its hardness preventing adhesion. So, what is the optimum time to do anything, please? I quite like the sound of decanting the aerosol contents and using it in an airbrush, but actually I haven't experienced any problems with the celly attacking plastic. Admittedly I am usually spraying over the factory finish, but my latest project involving rubbing down to bare plastic to remove carriage lining hasn't led to anything amiss and I've managed to get a good primer coat on. What I am careful to do, is to spray the first coats as very thin mists so there is a minimum of thinners landing at one time. Bob Hi again, Thank you for your comments. What you say about the first coat is exactly correct - by spraying a very fine first coat there will be very little solvent to attack the plastic and if then allowed to dry that first coat will act as a barrier to subsequent coats. I'm afraid to say that after only one day the solvent in cellulose will still be very active and is almost certainly the cause of the regrettable problem that you have suffered. As to the other matter I pointed out its a real problem unless its possible to 'key' the surface prior to undertaking such work afterwards - not very easy in window apertures of course. In simple terms my comment would be that cellulose paint is not suitable in a small-scale modelling situation - and of course it was never intended to be - but that is hardly very helpful so i'll offer the following that in my experience works well enough for our purposes. After leaving the sprayed cellulose. for at least 14 days (preferably a bit longer) carefully run a thin line of a good quality WHITE SPIRIT BASED (enamel) round the window edge - I have found over the years that one of the best is Ronseal 'Mattcoat'. Do not use an acrylic varnish for this as its adhesion will not be that good. This varnish line can be used to hold the glazing if desired or be left to dry. If doing the latter give it a couple of days and then proceed with the Kleer as before. The Kleer will be able to 'key' into the matt varnish and the glazing should be held ok. The matt varnish does not 'key' into the cellulose for the previously stated reason but will - provided time is allowed for the cellulose solvent to fully flash out - hold well enough for the purpose. My suggestion of putting the cellulose into an airbrush is worth trying as no aerosol can or will give as fine a finish as a decent airbrush. One last point i'd add here is that great care should be taken if spraying cellulose on many modern plastic models even allowing for the thin first coat trick. Due to the possible action of the solvent in cellulose paint in the longer term - including its presence as vapour within the model -it is all too possible for this to cause warping of the model over time -particularly prone item is Bachmann BR Mk.1 coaches due to their thin sides (I've had this happen to several some 6 - 8 months after spraying) so keep this in mind if intending to use cellulose. Also make sure that you are not risking insurance problems as many houses built in the last 20 or so years can have a covenant in the deeds specifically excluding the spraying of cellulose paints - even in the small quantities used for models. Hope that the above is of help. Regards to all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platform10 Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hi Weatherman, More useful stuff, thank you. The varnish idea is something I have not heard of before and I'll certainly give it a go, especially now I've tracked down some Klear! On the face of it, there doesn't seem to be much in favour of cellulose, does there? I say that, now I've invested in several tins of my chosen colours mixed at my local car sprayers! In my defence I believed that the celly finish would be much more durable than enamel (and I'm not yet an acrylic convert), enabling some good scrubbing action for the weathering without worry of lifting the livery colour. But I'm willing to give the Halfords stuff through the airbrush a go, even though the cans work out quite expensive. I agree the aerosol delivery is massive and crude when compared with the airbrush, in fact the aerosol overspray completely overwhelms my spray booth extractor fan! So, I just need to be patient for a couple of weeks before I try your recommendations. Thanks again for your help. Best wishes, Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hi Weatherman, More useful stuff, thank you. The varnish idea is something I have not heard of before and I'll certainly give it a go, especially now I've tracked down some Klear! On the face of it, there doesn't seem to be much in favour of cellulose, does there? I say that, now I've invested in several tins of my chosen colours mixed at my local car sprayers! In my defence I believed that the celly finish would be much more durable than enamel (and I'm not yet an acrylic convert), enabling some good scrubbing action for the weathering without worry of lifting the livery colour. But I'm willing to give the Halfords stuff through the airbrush a go, even though the cans work out quite expensive. I agree the aerosol delivery is massive and crude when compared with the airbrush, in fact the aerosol overspray completely overwhelms my spray booth extractor fan! So, I just need to be patient for a couple of weeks before I try your recommendations. Thanks again for your help. Best wishes, Bob Hi Bob, Thank you for your kind comments. I thought perhaps it might be worth adding a few more bits of info that I've amassed over the years in the hope they might prove useful to you or others. (1). If putting cellulose through an airbrush you must clean the airbrush out by spraying cellulose thinners through it fairly soon after finishing the colour spraying - I know it sounds obvious but I've had real fun (not) trying to clear a friends airbrush that he tried to clean with white spirit after spraying cellulose. (2). I've noticed that I have missed out some intended wording when talking about running enamel round the window edges - I meant to say enamel type varnish for this. (3). The Ronseal range is described on the tin as being for wood. However these products are basically a high quality polyurethane varnish and are quite suitable for modelling use. I use 'Glosscoat' for preparation finish before applying decals - especially waterslide. 'Satincoat' is perfect for the final finishing and can be controlled superbly via an airbrush to give anything from near matt through various degrees of sheen up to an almost full gloss - certainly too glossyfor a small scale model in most circumstances and 'Mattcoat' is the bees knees for a dead flat finish on freight stock as its surface takes all types of weathering perfectly. Perhaps i'd better say that no I do not have any connection with the maker of these products except as a long term user of these items. You are quite correct in that cellulose dries to a far harder finish than almost all other finishes - many years ago it was common practice among loco builders (me included) to spray the basic colour in cellulose and then apply lining with a bow pen using enamel - any mistake in the lining could then be corrected with white spirit without harming the base colour. Another advantage was that the very hard cellulose base colour resisted the blades of the bow pen far better than the oil based paints of the day. Nowadays give me good quality enamel and decent transfers/decals any day !! I'll give my choices here but must say that these are my opinions formed over very many years and may not be the opinions of others. For basic livery colours my first choice is Railmatch Enamels followed when necessary by Precision. For transfers/decal I much prefer Modelmaster. only if necessary due to something not being made by MM will I use the products of the other main manufacturer. Hope this is of interest or help. Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platform10 Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hi WeatheringMan, Firstly, profuse apologies - you are not the Weatherman, as I called you last time! Yes, I've had good experiences with the Ronseal Satincoat too. It makes for a very nice finish, but I haven't tried it yet on top of cellulose... As for bow pens - they and I were never intended for each other! Thanks again. Best wishes, Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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