Beyond the Class 85

[GordonC]

The thing that surprises me is how much the old models are still retailing for. I mean new liveries of the 87 and 90 when they come out (ok its been a year or two), but they've been pretty steep for old, basic models. The 142 is the same, compare that to the Real track Class 144

[Titan]

309's would be popular given comments hereabouts, but as a class it's a nightmare for tooling up.

 

 

As built, you have the 309/1, 2 and 3 (well AM9 and what ever the pre-TOPS scheme was but these are the TOPS codes)

 

309/1 DMBSK+BDTS (8 in total)

309/2 BDTC+MBSK+TRB+DTC (8 in total)

309/3 BDTC+MBSK+TSO+DTC (7 in total)

 

7 different vehicle types!

 

As you'll see, the two car has no common vehicles with the four car units. After refurbishment you have the following formations

 

309/1 DMBS+TS+TC+BDTS (TS and TC converted from hauled stock - 8 in total)

309/3 BDTC+MBS+TS+DTS (some TS converted from hauled stock when replacing TRB - 15 in total)

 

Plus another 7 different vehicle types potentially (though as you say, externally changing window mouldings might cover this).

 

And somewhere in the middle you have the augmented 309/1's with TSO and TCK, and the reduced 309/2's lacking the TRB. The TSO and TCK would need a end tooling change at minimum from the MK1 hauled stock versions (TSO and CK).

 I know there are quite a few different vehicle types, but to start the ball rolling only two are required, no need to introduce the whole lot in one go! The rest could be introduced later if the popularity of the two car justified it.

[wombatofludham]

At the risk of being a bit too logical about the debate, I still think the best way in which to stimulate demand for AC modelling is to have a core range of complimentary models in terms of era and sphere of operation, then expand outwards. 

 

Let's take a hypothetical new modeller who is interested in modelling a Midlands or north-west location with electrics and diesels.  He or she wants the latest running capabilities, detail and DCC operation, but is time poor so can't indulge in huge amounts of time cutting and shutting models and fitting fiddly expensive detail, or buying spare chassis to re-engineer the running capabilities and accommodate DCC.  They are either happy to turn a blind eye to the lack of OHLE, or happy to use Sommerfeldt or Veismann HO masts.  For their diesel fleet they have an impressive range of diesels which cover every period from the early 60s to the end of BR and beyond.  Then they look at the AC models available.

 

The only model of modern detail levels and running capacities currently available off the shelf is the Class 85 in a range of liveries from 1962 until the mid 1990s.  Great, with careful planning and scenic detailing, avoiding obviously dated scenery, that gives our hypothetical modeller the chance to run steam, diesel and electric together, and with the same layout potentially carry on through the "banger Blue" period to sectorisation, and the complimentary diesel and steam stock is all there to do that, so they decide that's the way to go.  However, our hypothetical modeller knows there was more to the Midlands-north west scene than the 85, so they look for the complimentary range of electrics to create a representative impression.  They find the Heljan 86, and they perhaps are not too worried about the flawed details, or the steroidally enhanced pantograph, but unfortunately the range of liveries isn't what they want, plus of course it is now out of production.  They see some Hornby 87s still for sale but given that model was new when I was doing my O levels (and I'm now 51...) and lacks modern features and running capability, it is rejected as being too old fashioned.  They find a well known on-line auction site also has a lot of Hornby 86s for sale in a range of liveries that would be suitable for the time period they are thinking about but again reject them because they too are too crude and lack DCC options.

 

I think at the moment the fact the only plug and play AC electric still available that is to current expected levels of running and detail is the Class 85 really does mean that the next AC models ought to tie in closely to that model's operating sphere and date in service, to help develop a "synergy" and enable someone to develop a range of options for their layout knowing there is a basic foundation of stock availability.  

[Andy Hayter]

The overhead electrification parts provision for the UK modeller needs a sea change.

Actually not just for the UK modeller - outside of DACH (D=Deutschland/Germany; A = Austria; CH = Switzerland) - the European coverage is pretty poor as well. Sommerfeld and Viessmann cover these countries well. After that? In fact the major model producers (by which I mean companies that produce rolling stock, locomotives and accessories) almost to a man ignore the overhead supply system.

It doesn't work as a regular manufactured item, I humbly suggest from the evidence before us. But then neither does layout wiring, ballasted track and scenically treated layouts, to identify a few things that modellers do by ther own efforts in order to get a working model railway together.

 

Suggests to me that there is a niche market here for someone. Is the tech mature enough for sale of a 3D printer kit with a bundle of patterns ready to print to make a selection of the most common components for example?

I have seen the prices for bespoke etched and printed catenary items (almost all 1500V DC which does add some complication) and the prices would invite any railway modeller to move to knitting!! A length of double track catenary could well be more expensive than the train sitting on it!

 

Perversely there is one major producer who does at least make OH wires and catenary masts - Hornby.

Formerly Electrotren some of the Hornby International masts could pass for 25KV although I have not checked the mast height for 00. Is this perhaps a solution?

 

http://www.hornbyinternational.com/en/62-catenary

[ThaneofFife]

Re hornbys sytem of ohle- its crude but possible.i seem to recall the masts came in a cream/ivory coloured plastic so the first thing to change would be the colour of the material to grey.that would be a start and whilst it wasnt a great looking system it was i believe quite robust but doesnt that mean then its suited more to your train setters?i could be wrong.....

I think only the cl91 would be the class tgat wouldnt be able to fit with the 85s era.81-90 is about as wide a choice as you can get.

Does Bachmann go for 81-84 on the basis that we already have 86 87 and 90 options......or do they think lets improve an existing model? I reckon the model least likely to see another option would be the class 86 as we have options from Heljan and Hornby.the 87 and 90 rtr options purely Hornby/limby.

But would an 81-84 be too similar as one of the early AL designs to the AL5......

If Bachmann were to move ACs forward i would imagine it would be either the class 81,87 or 90. Also, i know the 85 hauled express class 1 passenger but post TOPS it was mainly a freight machine.you could then say 87 or 90 for crack express work.....that line of thought would rule out 81,82,83 and 84.

Wouldnt it be interesting if at the time of the 85s conception Bachmann already had plans in place for its follow up AC model if they think that far ahead?

Edited March 19, 2014 by ThaneofFife

[Talltim]

I know there are quite a few different vehicle types, but to start the ball rolling only two are required, no need to introduce the whole lot in one go! The rest could be introduced later if the popularity of the two car justified it.

But if you start with a two car unit you have to produce all new moulds for any of the longer units. Adding more vehicles then isn't any cheaper than producing a model of something different

[wombatofludham]

 I reckon the model least likely to see another option would be the class 86 as we have options from Heljan and Hornby.the 87 and 90 rtr options purely Hornby/limby.

 

I'm not so sure.  For one, we no longer have the Heljan option and they seem to be unwilling to re-release it, although they have said that before about the 47 and 58.  The Hornby option isn't a serious contender.  It's rather like the situation with the Class 47 - the old Hornby model was overtaken first by Lima, then Heljan pitched in with the Tubby Duff, Aunty Vi took on the mantle with some success but aimed more at the collector, then Bachmann pitched up with another version, taking on Heljan's slightly over-wide offering and Hornby's re-issued Lima historic casting.  OK, with 512 Class 47s built and their universal use, the market is bigger, but Bachmann have shown in the past they are not afraid of competing head on with Hornby or Heljan.

 

I think the market is still wide open for a Class 86 and Bachmann might yet still consider it worth a punt, given their longevity and relatively widespread use.

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

Re hornbys sytem of ohle- its crude but possible.i seem to recall the masts came in a cream/ivory coloured plastic

Mine,like the webpage are grey - but mine are 20 years plus old. Yes they are a bit crude, but add a few add ons (courtesy Sommerfeld for example) and you start to get close. On their own they would not satisfy the serious modeller, but they could help bridge the current gaps.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Andy Hayter

[Dagworth]

Mine,like the webpage are grey - but mine are 20 years plus old. Yes they are a bit crude, but add a few add ons (courtesy Sommerfeld for example) and you start to get close. On their own they would not satisfy the serious modeller, but they could help bridge the current gaps.

Cantilevers are so easy to build though, there really is no need to wait for RTR ones or to repaint ancient awful attempts. Build your own and you can make them strong enough to take decent wiring too.

 

As for AC traction I've got four Bachmann 85s, one of which is pretty much a shelf sitter item and that is the Collectors Club model, the other three are all fleet locos. They sit alongside a vast fleet of Hornby 86s (No Heljan 86s for me, the one I had got broken up and its guts ended up under a Trix 81, the body went on eBin a couple of weeks back) and Lima 87s all of which have major rebuilt underframes with Hj 26/27/33 guts.

 

Regarding EMUs, if any manufacturer does come out with an RTR Clacton then my toys really will go out of the pram! I want to see either a 310 or a 304 to go with the 85 we have now. 

My hope for the next loco would be an 86 in proper condition or an 87 with MU jumpers and a cross-arm pan, but I expect to actually see a 90.

 

Andi

Edited March 19, 2014 by Dagworth

[ThaneofFife]

I'm not so sure.  For one, we no longer have the Heljan option and they seem to be unwilling to re-release it, although they have said that before about the 47 and 58.  The Hornby option isn't a serious contender.  It's rather like the situation with the Class 47 - the old Hornby model was overtaken first by Lima, then Heljan pitched in with the Tubby Duff, Aunty Vi took on the mantle with some success but aimed more at the collector, then Bachmann pitched up with another version, taking on Heljan's slightly over-wide offering and Hornby's re-issued Lima historic casting.  OK, with 512 Class 47s built and their universal use, the market is bigger, but Bachmann have shown in the past they are not afraid of competing head on with Hornby or Heljan.

 

I think the market is still wide open for a Class 86 and Bachmann might yet still consider it worth a punt, given their longevity and relatively widespread use.

 

Well if were talking new stock we dont have even have a Hornby option but my point was if you want to model 86s then the available options albeit used are from Heljan and Hornby.

I dont tend to place emphasis on class numbers anymore when trying to get a sense of logic concerning the possibility of a certain class reaching the catalogue.

 

one thing i will add is that going on the quality and accuracy of the 85 if anyone were to produce another AC loco i would hope it would be Bachmann who are sure to make a fine job if it provided its not rolled out with the faults the new class 40 seems to be suffering from.......

 

With fewer diesels left to pick off or retool do the manufacturers get on with the electric pool now of which theres big choice 71/74 81 82 83 84 86 87 89 90 91 92 or start looking at more improvements to the diesels?????

[Titan]

But if you start with a two car unit you have to produce all new moulds for any of the longer units. Adding more vehicles then isn't any cheaper than producing a model of something different

Wrong on both counts. 

 

First, once you have made the two car, you don't 'have to produce' any more. Like it or not making a two car and stopping there is an option.  In this case ony two sets of moulds 'have to' be produced. ie just like with the 2 car Networker Hornby did not 'have to' produce the extra moulds for the four car units and so far that is exactly what they have done, so there is even precedent for making a two car unit from a nominally 4 car fleet and stopping.

 

Secondly, in producing a 4 car 309/1, the same roof, bodysides, bogies and possibly interior from the existing loco hauled Mk1 moulding could be used for the intermediate trailers.  So again not even close to all new moulds being required for a 4 car unit - although the cab moulding would need to need changed to the flat glass style which might offset things a little, but even so for a four car unit it still would not be all new tooling for the two extra vehicles.

 

What you really mean is that if they were to produce a 309 the way you want them to they will need more than two moulds. However that might mean the project would not be viable, unless you are saying that you would prefer no 309 at all rather than just a 2 car?

[ThaneofFife]

Are the 309/1s the "Clacton" 100mph 4 car units?  If so they would make a very attractive unit especially in Jaffa Cake livery. 

 

Is their operational/geographical scope a limiting factor I wonder?  That seemed to be a consideration only a few years back but maybe the rule book has been thrown out now with the Blue Pullman, Class 13s, Class 76s, Met Bo-Bos etc....

[brushman47544]

Bachmann duplicating the Class 86, 87, 90 or 92 will always be a financial risk because they would know the current models could be released again before their new one reached the shops and so soak up some or all of the pent up demand. Could Bachmann keep production a secret until release, to try and avoid that?

 

A preserved Class 87 in BR blue heading a railtour out of Paddington on the newly electrified GWML might tempt me if a new 87 model was produced.

[Traksy]

Bachmann duplicating the Class 86, 87, 90 or 92 will always be a financial risk because they would know the current models could be released again before their new one reached the shops and so soak up some or all of the pent up demand. Could Bachmann keep production a secret until release, to try and avoid that?

 

A preserved Class 87 in BR blue heading a railtour out of Paddington on the newly electrified GWML might tempt me if a new 87 model was produced.

 

Seriously doubt any of the Hornby's models can compete with a new one.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

A model of the standard achieved with the 85 would take all the 'discerning' market, and more besides. That's how Bachmann and Heljan have thrived in OO, typically offering a package that is perceptibly better than anything previous, even with faults on the new model.

 

In the post steam locomotive department, as already alluded to there's nothing but head to head now in terms of significant classes of main line types that saw extended service. It's just a matter of subject choice, and in terms of subjects that have weak current models the AC electrics stand out as a group. I would think Heljan for the 87 based on their 'previous form' of recycling the mechanism into all possible subjects. Because an 87 will fit the running gear  - the definite good bit! - of the 86; and its longevity and livery variety make it a very juicy prospect.

[Titan]

Are the 309/1s the "Clacton" 100mph 4 car units?  If so they would make a very attractive unit especially in Jaffa Cake livery. 

 

Is their operational/geographical scope a limiting factor I wonder?  That seemed to be a consideration only a few years back but maybe the rule book has been thrown out now with the Blue Pullman, Class 13s, Class 76s, Met Bo-Bos etc....

Yes and no. They started as two car units to augment the 8 car trains to 10 cars, and provide extra acceleration - a two car unit had the same traction package and 100mph capability as the four car units. Then between 1977 and 1980 they had extra trailers modified from loco hauled stock added to make them full four car units rather than booster units and used accordingly. In 1985 they got refurbished, gained hopper windows and the first few jaffa cake livery until Network SouthEast was invented whereupon the remainder got that, along with the jaffa cakes being repainted in due course.

 

So if a start was made with a two car the possibilties would be:

 

Initial release

 

Maroon 2 car

Blue/grey 2 car

 

The next stage would be to add the trailers that made them four cars, as they were late 70's. These body styles are already produced, so the only tooling that would be required would be underframe and ends.  Some units still had wrap around windows then, so it may be possible that if the number is chosen correctly an authentic 4 car model in blue grey could be produced without even having to retool the cabs.

 

Then if the glazing is changed you could do the refurbished jaffa cake/ NSE liveries.

 

Sadly none of the 309/1's made it to the north west, so none of them carried the regional railways livery.

 

The down side off this is that there would not be much scope for operating a maroon version in an authentic manner, as working a single 2 car would be rare, and working in multiple even rarer which would limit its appeal to the serious modeller.

 

However an 8 car formation comprising two 4 car 309/1's must have happened fairly regularly, so with just two new vehicles and slightly modified existing ones a realistic length train would be possible to those that want to model post 1970's, albeit maybe not the formation of choice.

[sub39h]

Seriously doubt any of the Hornby's models can compete with a new one.

 

Agreed - I'm in the market for a Class 90 but wouldn't touch Hornby's offering with a bargepole. If Bachmann were to announce they were releasing a Class 90 the laws of mathematics would be bent as the chances of me buying a Hornby Class 90 would go from 0 to somehow less than 0. 

[ThaneofFife]

The Heljan 86 chassis could not only accommodate an 87 (but if it was as flawed as the 86 then please Heljan just leave the 87 alone)

but also the Class 90 has the same key chassis dimensions (ditto the aforementioned caveat).......

 

I agree, if Bachmann made an announcement say in July then the discerning modeller would gladly hold onto their cash for 2.5-3 years until the improved model arrived.  They wouldnt blow (almost as much no doubt) it on a reliveried/re-released Hornby model. 

 

With the recent situation surrounding the Mk2e and Mk2f Aircon coaches between Hornby and Bachmann it seems possible you could have two manufacturers planning the same model at roughly the same time.  That would be a tricky one.......

[brushman47544]

The Heljan 86 chassis could not only accommodate an 87 (but if it was as flawed as the 86 then please Heljan just leave the 87 alone)

but also the Class 90 has the same key chassis dimensions (ditto the aforementioned caveat).......

 

I agree, if Bachmann made an announcement say in July then the discerning modeller would gladly hold onto their cash for 2.5-3 years until the improved model arrived.  They wouldnt blow (almost as much no doubt) it on a reliveried/re-released Hornby model. 

 

With the recent situation surrounding the Mk2e and Mk2f Aircon coaches between Hornby and Bachmann it seems possible you could have two manufacturers planning the same model at roughly the same time.  That would be a tricky one.......

 

Let's hope we're in a position to see. A different prototype I appreciate, but Dapol announcing its all new Class 73 didn't stop Hornby's Pullman liveried Limby version selling out quite quickly, despite that livery being announced by Dapol (as a Gaugemaster L/E). Yes there's quite a price differential, but I suspect the same would apply if Hornby knew it was competing against an all new Bachmann version.

[Andy Hayter]

Cantilevers are so easy to build though, there really is no need to wait for RTR ones or to repaint ancient awful attempts. Build your own and you can make them strong enough to take decent wiring too.

I totally agree, but then that puts us both into my group 4 and does nothing to help promote the group 3 market - see earlier post for the groupings.

[ThaneofFife]

Then you must have group 3 and group 4 modellers in terms of locos not just ohle?

 

The group 4 modeller might scratch their own ohle yet run a rtr class 85 under it. So the reality is that there is no groupings really.

 

Either that or you need to add a 5th group for those that sit on the next rung up and scratch everything...locos.stock....ohle....buildings....

[frobisher]

I know there are quite a few different vehicle types, but to start the ball rolling only two are required, no need to introduce the whole lot in one go! The rest could be introduced later if the popularity of the two car justified it.

I'd disagree - the 4 car gives a better basis for going forward, and a better place to stop if there are no further developments. Even if all that is ever produced is the "as built" 309/3, that could be used as the basis for modelling 2/3's of the fleet throughout their working life (and potentially could be bodged into the remaining third with greater ease than the other way around). I suspect a 2 car 309 will remain as such.

[Dagworth]

 

Either that or you need to add a 5th group for those that sit on the next rung up and scratch everything...locos.stock....ohle....buildings....

I guess that's me then...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=3231 ?

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=16268

 

Andi

Edited March 20, 2014 by Dagworth

[ThaneofFife]

Im not sure about the relevance....

[Dagworth]

Im not sure about the relevance....

That I am your fifth group, I scratchbuild OLE, AC stock and AC locos...

 

Andi