HO substitutes for modern OO ferry/tunnel wagons

[Satan's Goldfish]

I've had a good trawl through the site today while pretending to work for references to what HO continental wagons work well as OO ferry wagons, specifically ones like the OO Heljan Cargowaggons, but I can't find much info.

 

For example, FS vans as seen on Exford Park from Jouef work well i'm informed (but can i find any available? No.) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3975-exford-park/?p=1387220

 

And quick ebay trawls show Roco do a HO VTG ferry wagon, but i'm not sure size apperance wise how it will compare to OO vans as this would technically be 'UK HO' in scale rather than the larger UIC gauge.

 

A couple of N gauge threads cropped up during my search asking a similar question, and one responder mentioned using continental UIC gauge bogie vans suitable re-liveried could make passable 'ferry vans' of generic types for uk layouts because of the 1:148 to 1:160 scale difference. I'm not a rivet counter so this sounds like a good idea to me, but i'm not familiar enough with the different types of continental van to know where to start looking for 1:87 UIC van that will convert nicely to a 1:76 UK gauge international van. Can anyone point me in a good starting direction?

 

I'm not against using HO in my mixed OO freights (I have an Electrotren tanker doing this already) but i'd still like them to to look right and not obviously a different scale. This question of suitability isn't really just limited to vans so any other recommendations of wagons that could be modified to ferry/channel tunnel use would also be gratefully received. Old Lima bogie tankers are already on my radar but not sure what they'd turn into unless i create a magic new wagon.

 

Many thanks

[Satan's Goldfish]

Good opening contenders if anyone knows any information please:

 

 

http://www.Hornby.es/electrotren-h0-1-87/vagones-de-mercancias/vago-n-de-paredes-corredizas-cargas-renfe-agri-cola.html

 

256mm sounds a good length but can anyone advise me on height/width?

 

 

 

http://www.Hornby.es/rivarossi-h0-1-87/vagones-de-mercancias/ns-4-axle-tarpaulin-covered-wagon-type-rilnss-euroluxcargo.html

 

Tarp covered wagon, bit shorter, but how would it compare to my old Lima 'railfreight' red steel carrier tarp wagon?

 

 

 

http://www.roco.cc/en/product/80689-0-0-4-1-0-0-003001/products.html

 

And the previously mentioned Roco job. 230mm length sounds short compared to the above 3 door van. the 'Ferry Wagon' is 'Recommended' at the bottom. The other item 'recommended' at the bottom is this: http://www.roco.cc/en/product/81001-0-0-4-1-0-0-003001/products.html which has a much more impressive 267mm length but i think height may be an issue.....unsure. The Roco site in general seems to be a potential good source of useful candidates for adaption, if only i knew the whole wagon dimensions!

[giz]

I wouldn't bother with the Roco van built to the British loading gauge, I've got a couple and they look tiny. As you say they are true HO models of a British prototype.

The Electrotren vans are much bigger and don't look bad. Mine are in the loft somewhere so I can't measure them up easily, unfortunately.

[Satan's Goldfish]

I wouldn't bother with the Roco van built to the British loading gauge, I've got a couple and they look tiny. As you say they are true HO models of a British prototype.

The Electrotren vans are much bigger and don't look bad. Mine are in the loft somewhere so I can't measure them up easily, unfortunately.

 

good stuff, thank you. I suspected i may need to avoid the smaller Roco vans. Some of the larger ones still look like possible candidates though.

 

I'm glad you say the Electrotren ones aren't bad, they're my favorite of what i've found so far.

[The Bigbee Line]

Roco do a DB 2 axle low sided open that had potential

[Classsix T]

I've a couple of tankers for use in my Harwich - Mossend freight Matt, I'll get some piccies and details up this weekend.

They're marshalled in with a motley collection of the ancient Hornby VIX wagons.

What time period are you looking at?

 

C6T.

[sub39h]

http://www.Hornby.es/rivarossi-h0-1-87/vagones-de-mercancias/ns-4-axle-tarpaulin-covered-wagon-type-rilnss-euroluxcargo.html

 

Tarp covered wagon, bit shorter, but how would it compare to my old Lima 'railfreight' red steel carrier tarp wagon?

 

That IS Lima's steel carrier tarp wagon You can get it in Tiphook livery as well. I have the original Lima red ones and one of these Tiphook ones. 

 

http://www.ehattons.com/57653/Golden_Valley_Hobbies_GV6001_Tarpaulin_wagon_in_Tiphook_Steel_Express_livery_weathered_HO_Scale_/StockDetail.aspx

Edited March 21, 2014 by sub39h

[The Bigbee Line]

That IS Lima's steel carrier tarp wagon You can get it in Tiphook livery as well. I have the original Lima red ones and one of these Tiphook ones. 

 

http://www.ehattons.com/57653/Golden_Valley_Hobbies_GV6001_Tarpaulin_wagon_in_Tiphook_Steel_Express_livery_weathered_HO_Scale_/StockDetail.aspx

 

Here are some pictures of the real thing in August 1994.

It's not a short train, but the front two wagons of a train that had a problem.

 

 

 

Here's the problem.  Not sticking to the loading pattern (Three heavy coils) had overloaded the structure of the wagon

 

 

The models aren't a bad representation, but I feel the waviness is a little over exaggerated.  When closed the hoods were tensioned and quite taught.  The waves come when they are un-clipped ready to have the hoods pulled back for loading - unloading.

[Maltazer]

You can just about get away with some HO wagons, but not the ones that are models of UK loading gauge prototypes.  They looked odd in real life on the continent, and will be just as weird on your layout.

 

Prototype example here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25283

 

I took some pictures of various wagons marshalled next to a Heljan class 33 so you can see the difference in size

 

Roco Cargowaggon (These are way too small, so I only use these as background scenery, and never run them)

 

Electrotren Transfesa wagon

 

Marklin Interfrigo van (the Acme ones are the same size)

 

And a wider shot just to illustrate further

 

HTH

 

Mal

 

 

[jwealleans]

My interest in ferry vans is a fair bit further back in the twentieth century, but I've only found one HO example which can be used in OO with any relationship to accuracy and that's the ROCO FS peak roof ventilated van. Something like this only matchboarded. For 1:76 it's scale width and 2mm too short. I think you can get away with them until the 1970s.

 

I scratchbuilt a pair of German Saarbrucken vans and bought a Liliput (I think) one to help. I posed a photo of the two together when I'd finished mine and the difference is very much more than we sometimes think. I'll try to find the photo.

[The Bigbee Line]

My interest in ferry vans is a fair bit further back in the twentieth century, but I've only found one HO example which can be used in OO with any relationship to accuracy and that's the ROCO FS peak roof ventilated van. Something like this only matchboarded. For 1:76 it's scale width and 2mm too short. I think you can get away with them until the 1970s.

 

I scratchbuilt a pair of German Saarbrucken vans and bought a Liliput (I think) one to help. I posed a photo of the two together when I'd finished mine and the difference is very much more than we sometimes think. I'll try to find the photo.

These are just the things I'm after, suitable for 1960's.  Any other information for things suitable for that era would be appreciated.

 

Here are some SNCB Ferry Wagon Drawings:

 

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

I've a couple of tankers for use in my Harwich - Mossend freight Matt, I'll get some piccies and details up this weekend.

They're marshalled in with a motley collection of the ancient Hornby VIX wagons.

What time period are you looking at?

 

C6T.

 

Cheers, era I'm looking at is 80 - 99, i have a good selection of the old VIX wagons but trying to bring the international selection more into the 90s.

 

A 'Intertational Ferry Wagons' book is on my wish list, i'm dropping hints to the wife.

 

That IS Lima's steel carrier tarp wagon You can get it in Tiphook livery as well. I have the original Lima red ones and one of these Tiphook ones. 

 

http://www.ehattons.com/57653/Golden_Valley_Hobbies_GV6001_Tarpaulin_wagon_in_Tiphook_Steel_Express_livery_weathered_HO_Scale_/StockDetail.aspx

 

Ah i didn't realise they were same moulding (with different couplings!) or that the Lima wagons were HO. That's some useful knowledge right there, thank you.

 

Here are some pictures of the real thing in August 1994.

It's not a short train, but the front two wagons of a train that had a problem.

 

Pluckley 02.jpg

 

Pluckley 18081994 47225.JPG

 

Here's the problem.  Not sticking to the loading pattern (Three heavy coils) had overloaded the structure of the wagon

 

Pluckley 1994 - Wwhat happens when incorrectly loaded.jpg

 

The models aren't a bad representation, but I feel the waviness is a little over exaggerated.  When closed the hoods were tensioned and quite taught.  The waves come when they are un-clipped ready to have the hoods pulled back for loading - unloading.

 

Mine may need some weathering.....

 

I bet whoever loaded that wagon was popular

 

Cheers guys.

[jwealleans]

Fairly lengthy thread on the earlier wagons (but it wandered) here. Search for Jon Hall's work on some of the vehicles you illustrate above as well.

 

I found this picture of the early stages of a stake wagon (which I've now almost completed) along with a Lilliput HO version - not the same wagon, but the bodies should be almost the same length:

 

.

 

31A had one of these on his Finsbury Square layout but I think decided it looked too small.

 

These ran into the 1970s, from resin castings by Jon Hall:

 

 

I had to scratchbuild these, but you'd also get these in to the 1970s and the transfers I commissioned are still available from John Peck at Precision Decals

 

 

More information on my WB thread.

Edited October 17, 2018 by jwealleans

[Satan's Goldfish]

Chhers Mal, they're some very useful comparrison pictures. that Roco van looks very small! Electrotren and Marklin vans have potential though, thankyou.

[Satan's Goldfish]

The older mentioned wagons are a bit before my time but will be interesting none the less as i'm not against running older stock. Unfortunately i'm on works computer and it's doesn't always approve of showing everyones images so i'll catch up with them when i get home.

[Maltazer]

Chhers Mal, they're some very useful comparrison pictures. that Roco van looks very small! Electrotren and Marklin vans have potential though, thankyou.

 

The electrotren one is still a bit too narrow for my liking - I guess it depends on your viewing angle whether you'd find it acceptable.  I never run them next to any OO stock - there's always an Interfrigo van in there to blend the differences :-)

 

Mal

[Fat Controller]

At various points, I've used Electrotren bogie vans (about correct for loading gauge, but too short) and Jouef Cargowaggons (ditto). It wasn't until I built a couple of VTG Ferrywaggons that I realised how massive they are. To be honest, if you're looking for representations of ferrywagons in 00, best go for the two Heljan offerings, or scratchbuild. I've done some of the FS and SNCF vans, using the Hornby single-axle 'bogies' and buffers from Appleby (I think Dave Franks does similar ones).

[Classsix T]

Don't forget also Matt, the Dapol telescopic hood steel carriers were internationally registered and had chain anchors etc for that purpose.

AFAIK they only went through Dover for ferry transit to the continent not Harwich but the more learned will hopefully clarify actual flows.

 

Thanks to those posting gen on stock of an earlier period btw, I shall find it very useful for my own purposes.

C6T.

[Satan's Goldfish]

At various points, I've used Electrotren bogie vans (about correct for loading gauge, but too short) and Jouef Cargowaggons (ditto). It wasn't until I built a couple of VTG Ferrywaggons that I realised how massive they are. To be honest, if you're looking for representations of ferrywagons in 00, best go for the two Heljan offerings, or scratchbuild. I've done some of the FS and SNCF vans, using the Hornby single-axle 'bogies' and buffers from Appleby (I think Dave Franks does similar ones).

  

 

Thanks for the info FC, I'm not a rivet counter so a close enough representation of these things is good enough for me. I've recently picked up a 'Speedlink' book which shows a difference in styles from the VTG vans and Cargowaggons and other varients so I was after an 'easy' method of representing different types which doesn't have to be 100% acurate but I don't want them to look obviously out of scale like the Roco VTG van above, hence looking at UIC gauge HO options. If I had more time/patience I'd probably look at scratch building, ebay searches are throwing up some nice liveries now on what I think are big UIC gauge vans.

 

Don't forget also Matt, the Dapol telescopic hood steel carriers were internationally registered and had chain anchors etc for that purpose.

AFAIK they only went through Dover for ferry transit to the continent not Harwich but the more learned will hopefully clarify actual flows.

Thanks to those posting gen on stock of an earlier period btw, I shall find it very useful for my own purposes.

C6T.

I have some of the Dapol telescopic wagons already, could possibly do with some more! Cheers C6T

[Fat Controller]

Don't forget also Matt, the Dapol telescopic hood steel carriers were internationally registered and had chain anchors etc for that purpose.

AFAIK they only went through Dover for ferry transit to the continent not Harwich but the more learned will hopefully clarify actual flows.

 

Thanks to those posting gen on stock of an earlier period btw, I shall find it very useful for my own purposes.

C6T.

In their early days, I believe the VTG sliding-hood wagons worked through both Harwich and Dover, before BR concentrated their efforts at Dover.

[The Bigbee Line]

In their early days, I believe the VTG sliding-hood wagons worked through both Harwich and Dover, before BR concentrated their efforts at Dover.

When there was a choice to be made between Dover and Harwich the traffic levels at Dover were low.  The 'Car Train' left just after the 22h00 night shift started and on some nights the only wagons in the 'Town Yard' was anything left in the C&W road (13 road).  Traffic from Spain had come through Dover, Paddock Wood was one of the main destinations.  When Harwich closed in 1987 it was like the start of WW3.  The traffic levels skyrocketed.  Mainly Steel traffic and Dangerous Goods

[jonhall]

 

 

Here's the problem.  Not sticking to the loading pattern (Three heavy coils) had overloaded the structure of the wagon

 

Pluckley 1994 - Wwhat happens when incorrectly loaded.jpg

 

.

 

How far had they travelled before failing like that?

 

The older mentioned wagons are a bit before my time but will be interesting none the less as i'm not against running older stock. Unfortunately i'm on works computer and it's doesn't always approve of showing everyones images so i'll catch up with them when i get home.

 

The small Belgian ridge roof vans were certainly still in traffic in the early '70's as there is a photo of one in David Larkin's PO Bradford Barton album book.

 

  

 

Thanks for the info FC, I'm not a rivet counter so a close enough representation of these things is good enough for me.

 

The VIX van is a UIC ORE type 3 van, so it should be dimensionally the same as a number of French/Belgian and Scandinavian vans (accepting Triangs compromises) so you might be able to do something by grafting on new sides out of plasticard? e.g http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/11448-ferry-van-huddersfield-23-07-1987jpg/

 

 

Jon

Edited March 21, 2014 by jonhall

[The Bigbee Line]

How far had they travelled before failing like that?

 

 

Jon

Not too far, the Driver felt something and shut off.  The train pipe stayed connected and the dragging part of the wagon braked the train to a halt.  There was no damage to the track.  It was my second call out of the night, the first was when two 'vingt deux milles' went through the stops at Dollands Moor.  Happy days.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Well folks, I've taken the plunge and ordered the ferry wagon book plus a Jouef 'habiss' style bogie van with 2 sliding doors. Depending how that scales out, I've got my eye on a second Jouef wagon in a different livery and some Electrotren vans with 3 sliding doors in various colours.

 

Slightly more expensive, the big Roco 2 door van in plain grey which I've linked further up the thread is tempting me to try and make my own VTG Ferry Wagon transfers.......one step at a time though!

[Classsix T]

Got some piccies of the continental stock I'm using.

 

This is a Jouef tanker, marked SNCF so French. No chain anchors on it so probably not entirely suitable for ferry traffic but similar to those that appear in prototype images.

 

This one is a Roco tanker, Germany (DB) marked and does have the accoutrements of ferry transit. Because the barrel isn't of maximum loading gauge diameter with side ladders and top filler hatches, it doesn't look out of place mixed in with 4mm scale stock.

 

C6T.