Coarse Scale O Gauge

[Metropolitan H]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Great stuff.

 

I last refurbished and re-painted (green) my water tower c1971, and the chain has disappeared since, so it really needs another going over now; I will steal the idea of adding a cover, which I like a lot.

 

(Your cat doesn't drink jenolite, I hope)

 

But Jenolite is mainly Phosphoric acid - only not as concentrated as that in Coca-Cola!

 

Always remember that both Jenolite and Coca-Cola are good flux for soft soldering - including soldering whitemetal components with Wood's Metal - but if you use Coca-Cola you do need to wash the caramellised sugar off after maknig the joint.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Bassettblowke]

The Jenolite was salvaged from my late fathers garage clear out I was dubious about using it as it must be at least ten years on the shelf. What I would say about it is it’s of little use on pitted or scale rust and I would suggest abrasion is still the best way  finished off with a two to three day total immersion in the product. Having some experience now of Jenolite I would only use it for fiddly things like couplings, enclosed is a picture of two 3 link couplings which were dropped straight into the Jenolite, the rusty part immediately begins to bubble and this continues until the rust is changed into a grey coating. On these small parts the reaction seems to last a couple of days before the bubbling eventually dies away. The instructions recommend wiping any excess fluid off and once dry painting. I opted for Zebrite stove polish instead.

i haven’t tried coke although many years ago whilst in the navy it was suggested among all sorts of other oddball things for effortless cleaning of brass and copper but was found to be borderline useless. As for it having any effect on ferrous metal I can’t offer an opinion.

As can be seen in the pictures Jenolite forms a coating over the rust it doesn’t actually remove it. I certainly won’t be buying any.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Bassettblowke

[rockershovel]

Coca Cola is certainly highly effective at cleaning verdigris and tarnish from copper coins. 

[Bassettblowke]

Out of curiosity and against my better judgement I succumbed and bought a large bottle of coke. I’ve placed various rusty objects in it and for comparison purposes a test with some Jenolite.

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Bassettblowke

[Bassettblowke]

Initial reaction to immersion in fluid, because of the caramelised colouring of Coke it’s difficult to see if anything is happening and the bubbles on the surface may well be Co2.

the Jenolite generates an instant reaction with the rust as can be seen by the rising bubbles and froth.

another look in 24hrs time

[Bassettblowke]

On a cautionary note the Jenolite bottle carries health and safety warnings about exposure to skin and ingestion so some care in handling is needed also warnings about damage caused by spillage on paintwork and work surfaces.

The Coke being designed from the outset for human consumption I am a lot more comfortable handling.

[Il Grifone]

The trouble I found with Coke (apart from being near to useless) is that it then takes ages to remove all the sugar. I suspect that the modern product has been modified in some way to not work as well (and not taste as well either, but that might be me!).

 

My tube of Jenolite jelly has gone hard!

[Nearholmer]

Chelation, with 50/50 black treacle and water, is often better for the smaller bits, and you can probably make a treacle tart, fortified with iron, with the resulting sauce (I haven’t tried this myself, mind you).

[Bassettblowke]

Having had a sneaky look I suspect the winner will be .........................................the Dremel

 

but you never know I might be surprised.

[Mark Carne]

Well, the Jenolite did exactly what it is supposed to do, which isn't remove the rust, but convert it back into metal. I can't remember off hand the active ingredient, but it's some acid that converts the rust, very useful for items in which the rust is threatening to the long term structural integrity. Like the Bing station roof I used it on, which converted a quite crumbly tin roof back into a reasonably solid roof.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Bassettblowke]

It’s just about 24hrs now so time for a look, first off the Coke only a very slight change in the sample and the chemical reaction as in bubbles seems to have ceased. The least tarnished coin seems to have changed the most but that said it wasn’t that bad in the first place. This stagnant brew is starting to get the evil eye off my wife so another 24 hrs and I will bring my tests to a close.

[Bassettblowke]

Second up is the Jenolite which is still bubbling away with a fair bit of residue beginning to appear in the mix. This too is on the receiving end of the evil eye.

 

so far no abrasion, rinsing or any other sort of cleansing has been initiated so what you see is the direct result of the actions of the Coke and the Jenolite.

[Bassettblowke]

And a final picture of a Hornby coupling that was chucked into the Jenolite at the same time, after 24 hrs in the mix you can see the result below.

what I would say about this is 5 mins with a wire brush in the Dremel would produce the same result, but it’s done what it says on the bottle. If you’re prepared to hang around for 24 hrs I don’t see anything wrong with it. Harking back to my days in the Navy as a very Junior rating when everything had to be done and dusted yesterday this wouldn’t have been given the time of day.

[Mark Carne]

7 hours ago, Bassettblowke said:

And a final picture of a Hornby coupling that was chucked into the Jenolite at the same time, after 24 hrs in the mix you can see the result below.

what I would say about this is 5 mins with a wire brush in the Dremel would produce the same result, but it’s done what it says on the bottle. If you’re prepared to hang around for 24 hrs I don’t see anything wrong with it. Harking back to my days in the Navy as a very Junior rating when everything had to be done and dusted yesterday this wouldn’t have been given the time of day.

 

Bassettblowke, well done for being a proper bloke, and not reading the instructions. However, this might be a case where it could prove useful if you do. No mention of soaking things for 24 hours. :-)

 

Cheers, Mark

[Bassettblowke]

I was actually aiming for 48hrs, you have a slight advantage over me in the instructions department see below but after a bit of scratching about on tinter-net I discovered the active ingredient is phosphoric acid which purportedly should neutralise the rust by creating a barrier. Hammerite does a similar thing providing you manage 100% coverage with no pinholes. Nothing magical really, the idea behind the 48hr dip was to match it evenly with coke, I suspect the concentration of phosphoric acid in coke is far weaker so the 48 hr was introduced to see if it could perform the same task albeit a lot slower. Also to show the varying degrees of effectiveness of Jenolite which I just happened to have access to free gratis.

mentioning Hammerite brings to mind a Petty Officer Instructor who finished virtually every sentence with “am I right” swiftly becoming known as Hammerite to his long suffering instructional class.

Anyway stay tuned for the next episode to see if the pliers dissolve in their entirety or emerge covered in red rust.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Bassettblowke

[Bassettblowke]

I also note from Marks bottle some variation in the instructions I wonder if the formula has changed over the years in which case this test is pretty pointless unless you happen to have a ten year old bottle lying around.

 

My Bottle reads “Re-paintable within one hour”

 

Marks Bottle reads “Apply topcoat after minimum of three hours”

 

so I wonder

 

further research  reveals that Jenolite is 100% phosphoric acid which is classed as a weak acid, if your really interested Jenolite publish comprehensive data sheets on their website. The percentage of phosphoric acid in soft drinks such as Coke, Dr Pepper etc is very low which thinking logically it would be I can’t imagine anyone wishing to guzzle a glass of high strength acid but then again you never know.

This of course casts a downer on my little test, however I will let it run its course if only to see what sort of Job the Jenolite does after a prolonged period.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Bassettblowke

[rockershovel]

Does anyone know why O Gauge developed as it did? Half of 1 Gauge would have been 1:64 scale, 7/8” or 22mm track gauge. Was O the smallest feasible size for the clockwork and live steam mechanisms of the period? 

[rockershovel]

Re Jenolite and similar products, I’ve mainly seen them used for situations where localised treatment was required to arrest corrosion quickly, without worrying too much about the resulting finish - particularly with small brackets or castings which would be difficult to remove, or awkward corners, that sort of thing. 

[rockershovel]

I once knew a driller with a strong cockney accent, who was known to his crew as “Awright” for much the same reason. 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

From what I can work out, 0 was indeed the smallest feasible at the time. 

 

It wasn't included in the initial standard set of gauges (I, II, II, IV, now 1, 2, 3, 4), which is why it had to be 0, and it was originally cited as 35mm because, like all the others at the time, it was measured between the centres of tin rails, the heads of which were rolled into a 3mm diameter section, so became 32mm when the move was made to measuring between inner faces.

 

There were attempts at other "small" gauges, including IIRC 24mm and 28mm, but 0 triumphed because Maerklin promoted it and most of the other Nuremburg firms adopted for reasons of compatibility.

 

Incidentally, I'm fairly sure that what we know as G1, at 48mm, was roughly Zwei Zoll, Two German Inches, and 0 at 35mm is roughly 1.5 Zoll.

 

(It is, of course really 0, nought, not O, oh, and French and German speakers render it properly as zero or null.)

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Bassettblowke]

Well I got surprise this morning the Jenolite had stopped it’s frothing which presumably means any sort of chemical reaction has ceased leaving a thick crusty type residue. 

The Coke looks pretty much exactly the same as when it started except it now looks like flat coke instead of fizzy Coke. Time to see what is revealed after a wash and dry

[Nearholmer]

A lot of trouble to go to to ruin a pair of pliers???

[Bassettblowke]

Quite a dramatic result on the pliers treated by Jenolite

 

With the Coke the only noticeable change is to one copper coin this was originally fairly bright with a couple of small spots of verdigris, the verdigris is still there and apart from the copper looking itself looking a different hue not much else has changed.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Bassettblowke

[Bassettblowke]

You shouldn’t prejudge the issue let’s see what lies beneath the gunge first

[Bassettblowke]

Not long out of the fluid you can see the reaction to the air kicking in as the surface where rust is still present turns grey, other areas are rust free and they now feel very smooth to the touch and ultra clean. I might give them a quick burnish with the Dremel and then decide what to finish off with.

 

other thoughts, yes agreed a lot of trouble to go to but it wasn’t about a pair of pliers. Would I repeat the process, probably not. I have changed my mind about Jenolite though it will figure in future battles against rust along with the Dremel, abrasive paper, wire wool etc etc.

 

As for the Coke I can only suggest you stick to drinking it I doubt it’s of any use for anything other than it’s intended purpose