Shunting the Motorail stock at St.Austell

[The Pilotman]

Afternoon all. Can anyone shed any light on the details of the (by the look of it, quite complicated) shunt movements that were required at St.Austell to unload/load the passengers and cars on the Motorail train from/to Kensington Olympia when it ran as passenger coaches and car flats in the 70s and 80s)? I have seen plenty of pictures of the down train in the down platform, the up train in the up platform and the two portions of the train in the sidings but none of the bits in between. In one of his books, John Vaughan mentions that there was once a resident shunter or that a loco came down from St.Blazey to assist. As the car flats always seemed to be at the rear in both directions, I would love to know how they did it. Regards.   

[ZiderHead]

I watched it many times as a kid (as well as loading our car at TM too), details in this excellent topic:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69084-kernow-blues-1970-to-1985/page-2&do=findComment&comment=973538

 

Signal box diagram is on the previous page 

Edited April 7, 2014 by ZiderHead

[The Pilotman]

Thanks for the link ZiderHead. Couldn't see any mention of the down working. My guess would be that the shunter would come onto the back of the train when the passengers were off and pull the lot back (minus the train engine) into the loop, then shunt the two sections into the sidings. Then the train engine would follow and couple onto the passenger coaches once the shunter was coupled to the flats.

[ZiderHead]

Hmmm I'm not sure if the passenger service terminated at St Austell or further down the line, and hence where the loco would run around the carriages. Its 40yrs since I was on a Motorail and at the time I was probably more concerned about where my next ice cream was coming from

 

This box diagram might be useful for reference if someone else knows about the operations: 

 

http://www.svrsig.org/diags/S1063-12.pdf

 

 

Edit: Paul has provided the answer while I was replying  

Edited April 7, 2014 by ZiderHead

[The Pilotman]

Thanks for the replies, gents. Sounds like quite a busy spell for all concerned at St.Austell... Must have needed a fairly big gap in traffic to accomplish all that.

[ZiderHead]

Yes I should have mentioned that the box diagram was 1968 from http://www.svrsig.org/diags/S1063.htm, which has a good description of the box and signalling as well as a separate locking table and dog chart (not an expression Ive come across before - it looks like the physical layout of the interlocking frame.)

Edited April 8, 2014 by ZiderHead

[ZiderHead]

Presumably once the shunter had moved the carflats into siding #1 and the coaches into #2, it would have backed onto the carflats in #1 so the train loco could then back onto the coaches in #2?

[The Stationmaster]

Study of photos suggests that the normal load of passenger vehicles for the Kenny - St Austell train was 8 and although the number of Carflats isn't clearly visible on any pic I can find on the 'net there look to be 10 although possibly 12 in one pic.  An important question is whether the Carflats worked back to Kenny or were swapped with the set off another service, the coaches appear to have worked out & back.

[ZiderHead]

oops - link now fixed It mentions Trenance Junction closing May 1968, so presumably the diagram is for early '68, or it took a while for the signal to be removed, and also the limit of shunt being extended.

[ZiderHead]

Study of photos suggests that the normal load of passenger vehicles for the Kenny - St Austell train was 8 and although the number of Carflats isn't clearly visible on any pic I can find on the 'net there look to be 10 although possibly 12 in one pic.  An important question is whether the Carflats worked back to Kenny or were swapped with the set off another service, the coaches appear to have worked out & back.

 

10 or 12 sounds about right, it seemed to completely fill the Motorail dock at TM - the whole train was an impressive sight!

[Rivercider]

In the local  St Blazey Freight Trip Booklet for May 1975 it is trip no. 22.

The 08 appears to be outstabled at St Austell and is referred to as St Austell Pilot no.1

It is shown to be manned 7 days a week with varying times depending on the time of year, examples are :- 

 

SX (Saturdays excepted) 05.51 - 17.45 but makes two trips light to Burngullow to shunt at 08.45 and 13.00

 

SO (Saturdays only) 06.15 -17.45 and 20.45 - 21.30

 

SUN (Sunday) 06.30 - 11.00 from 25/5 - 8/6 and 21/9 and 28/9

SUN (Sunday) 06.30 - 11.00 and 12.15 - 17.45 from 15/6/ - 31/8

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

Here is the page from the Trip Booklet

Section K -  St Blazey - Truro - Penzance dated 7th July 1975

 

 

cheers

[stovepipe]

Study of photos suggests that the normal load of passenger vehicles for the Kenny - St Austell train was 8 and although the number of Carflats isn't clearly visible on any pic I can find on the 'net there look to be 10 although possibly 12 in one pic.  An important question is whether the Carflats worked back to Kenny or were swapped with the set off another service, the coaches appear to have worked out & back.

 

Interesting thread.

 

In 1975 the KO - St Austell was diagrammed for 8 coaches and 11 carflats (2 of which were added at Reading), load 577 tons. All worked back on the 16:00, giving just over 2 hours to get all the shunting, unloading and loading done. In 1970/1/2 it was 10 carflats but with only 90 or so minutes to turn them all around. Info is from the BRCS Yahoo group.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 08/04/2014 at 18:14, The Stationmaster said:

Study of photos suggests that the normal load of passenger vehicles for the Kenny - St Austell train was 8 and although the number of Carflats isn't clearly visible on any pic I can find on the 'net there look to be 10 although possibly 12 in one pic.  An important question is whether the Carflats worked back to Kenny or were swapped with the set off another service, the coaches appear to have worked out & back.

 

Reviving an old thread, I found this one via Google while doing some research (layout planning???) on St Austell.

 

I presume that all the passenger accommodation on this train would be corridor coaches so that each car carried would have a private compartment set aside for its occupants. Would this be all FKs or a mix of FK, CK and SK? No need for baggage space, so presumably one of the BCK diagrams with a small guard's compartment.

 

Also, I suppose, all BR Mk1 by the early 60s, or might there have still been a bit of ex-GW stock involved?

 

Edit: Another question. I know that by BR blue days, they were using Motorail flats (ex BR Mk1 underframes), now conveniently available r-t-r in both OO and N. But what would they have been using in the early 60s?

Edited August 7, 2019 by Joseph_Pestell
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[The Stationmaster]

From what I saw, and experienced but on the Fishguard service, by the early '79s the WR Motorail services were all Mk1 stock and I suspect they had been for some considerable time before that in order to avoid the extra coupling work that would have been involved if using ex GWR vehicles.  Compartment stock was standard on WR Motorail services so that each car load of people had their own compartment - that was part of the marketing as was using 1st Class vehicles.

 

I',m not entirely sure when the 'modern' Motorail services started on the Western but I think it was probably the early 1960s

 

Have a look at this thread -

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108323-motorail/

 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Reviving an old thread, I found this one via Google while doing some research (layout planning???) on St Austell.

 

I presume that all the passenger accommodation on this train would be corridor coaches so that each car carried would have a private compartment set aside for its occupants. Would this be all FKs or a mix of FK, CK and SK? No need for baggage space, so presumably one of the BCK diagrams with a small guard's compartment.

 

Also, I suppose, all BR Mk1 by the early 60s, or might there have still been a bit of ex-GW stock involved?

 

Edit: Another question. I know that by BR blue days, they were using Motorail flats (ex BR Mk1 underframes), now conveniently available r-t-r in both OO and N. But what would they have been using in the early 60s?

Probably a mixture of bogie CCTs/GUVs; at the time, there would have been ex-GW 'Monsters', LNER CCTs (both the planked ex NER design and the conversions from displaced suburban stock), SR GUVs and LMS 42' CCTs. I saw a photo of new MGs being loaded at Abingdon in the 1960s which was formed of these types

[Joseph_Pestell]

Certainly what I would prefer. And I have seen one photo with 4w BR CCTs in one of the Motorail bays. Those CCTs converted from suburban stock sound interesting. Must see what I can find.

 

Motorail flats would be OK but they need "hand of God" intervention to get the cars on and off.

[Wickham Green]

Also new to this thread, I'm afraid and can't add a lot even though I was on the first ever St.Austell Motorail ( I've got a key ring to prove it somewhere ! ) ........ the car carriers were certainly Carflats on that service with Western Ambassador on the front of whatever coaching stock was used. ( The Carflats might have been on Mk 1 frames but there were lots on pre-nationalisation chassis too - unless those were restricted to new vehicle flows.) Every other Motorail we went on afterwards used Cartics ..... maybe St Austell again, Carlisle p'raps, possibly somewhere in Wales ? : it was a long time ago !

[Wickham Green]

Just now, Joseph_Pestell said:

.... Those CCTs converted from suburban stock sound interesting. Must see what I can find. .....

There's one preserved at the Great Central : http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2193 

[Fat Controller]

35 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Also new to this thread, I'm afraid and can't add a lot even though I was on the first ever St.Austell Motorail ( I've got a key ring to prove it somewhere ! ) ........ the car carriers were certainly Carflats on that service with Western Ambassador on the front of whatever coaching stock was used. ( The Carflats might have been on Mk 1 frames but there were lots on pre-nationalisation chassis too - unless those were restricted to new vehicle flows.) Every other Motorail we went on afterwards used Cartics ..... maybe St Austell again, Carlisle p'raps, possibly somewhere in Wales ? : it was a long time ago !

Cartics weren't used on Motorail into Wales; Swansea and Carmarthen were both BR GUVs, whilst Fishguard was Carflats.

[keefer]

IIRC on BR(S) there were carflats which were ex-EMU underframes. These were the older types which were withdrawn during the '60s/'70s and had buffers/screw couplings and low-level brake pipes

[dvdlcs]

Out of interest, for loading and unloading Motorail services would you drive your own vehicle on and off the flats under direction from rail staff or would you hand your keys over to them for the loading and unloading? If the latter, how did you retrieve your keys/vehicle at the end of the journey?

[Fat Controller]

42 minutes ago, keefer said:

IIRC on BR(S) there were carflats which were ex-EMU underframes. These were the older types which were withdrawn during the '60s/'70s and had buffers/screw couplings and low-level brake pipes

Never seen any mention of these before, though I heard of Bulleid coaches acting as donors. There were a number of old units that provided underframes for Manta and Marlin LWR wagons.

 

[Halvarras]

Switching attention to the motive power for the KO - St Austell Motorail for a moment, it doesn't seem to be widely known that Hymeks were regular performers during the summers of 1970 and 1971, with the loco stabled at St Blazey all day.

 

1970: D7045 (20/6), D7020 (27/6), D7051 (4/7), D7064 (11/7)

1971: D7017 (12/6), D7070 (3/7), D7041 (10/7), D7072 (17/7), D7049 (24/7), D7013 (31/7), D7088 (7/8) [7088's return working handled by D1057, reason unknown]

 

These may not be full lists, I was located further west and relied on school friends from St Austell to relay the information. A photo exists of D7064 parked inside St Blazey shed - the only known photo of any of these workings. When I heard that D7051 was in the rare all-over blue with small yellow panels I made the trip from Truro to see it that afternoon (D1682 to St A, D822 to Par, D847 return - those were the days!) How did I get to know about it on the day? Because we had school on Saturday mornings (don't ask!!)

 

Neil P

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Cartics weren't used on Motorail into Wales; Swansea and Carmarthen were both BR GUVs, whilst Fishguard was Carflats.

The WR Motorail trains (basically Fishguard and St Austell) were formed with Carflats.  But the attached services - where it was just an extra on an ordinary express passenger train - used covered bogie bogie vehicles, i.e. GUVs

 

23 hours ago, dvdlcs said:

Out of interest, for loading and unloading Motorail services would you drive your own vehicle on and off the flats under direction from rail staff or would you hand your keys over to them for the loading and unloading? If the latter, how did you retrieve your keys/vehicle at the end of the journey?

Normally driven by BR staff (they knew what they were doing and were used to it, especially when driving from one vehicle to the next or siding loading via a 'converted' Plate wagon at Reading;!).  As far as I can remember you) in some cases just the driver)  just went to a partcular spot to hand over the car and similarly waited at a particular spot to get it back.