Signal box or Ground frame

[Boris]

The new NYMR platform at Whitby is going to have quite a large ground frame controlling it (with parts unlocked by the DOKT and parts off a shunt key) with a member of staff being provided to operate the frame and the token instrument.

 

Here is a question for you, at what point does a ground frame stop being a ground frame and become a signal box?

[PaulRhB]

Really seems depends on whether it's regularly used to justify a permanent shift or if it's low use a ground frame will suffice. Still lots of ground frames that are kept during resignalling as the shunter is on site anyway so why replace with an expensive motor to operate it remotely.

Ground frames are cheaper and if 'performance' ,or time to most of us, isn't an issue then they are a good solution.

[49395]

Here is a question for you, at what point does a ground frame stop being a ground frame and become a signal box?

 

Is it when a roof gets fitted?...

 

Or does it have to be lifted off the ground?...

 

 

Mike

[The Stationmaster]

The new NYMR platform at Whitby is going to have quite a large ground frame controlling it (with parts unlocked by the DOKT and parts off a shunt key) with a member of staff being provided to operate the frame and the token instrument.

 

Here is a question for you, at what point does a ground frame stop being a ground frame and become a signal box?

It isn't a signalbox unless it's a block post (which I presume it isn't in this case as it's (or will be) an NSKT location with the frame released by the token.  Or are some more fancy controls/releases in mind because if it is token released it will increase the train running time of course.

[Boris]

It's all token released aside from the bits that are on a shunt token!  I must admit looking at the working instructions it's by far the most complex groundframe I have ever seen. 

 

I've had a couple of requests for a copy of the drawings currently in my possession, unfortunately chaps they are currently a controlled document so I'd get into a whole heap of bother were I to oblige, I do however have access to a "press" copy that I'll fish out and post up here at some point.

[PaulRhB]

Is it when Signals are involved rather than just points and waving at the Driver in the prescribed fashion?

 

I dunno Im jsut guessing

Nope lots of ground frames have signals.

 

Mike has put a better point of definition on it, if the traffic demands it it would be upgraded to a box but otherwise it would just be an occasionally used gf mid section. Locking trains in at the sidings to release the section for normal traffic was also once widespread.

[PaulRhB]

Getting quite a bit rarer though, several gone in recent times and three on my area, that are still in the interlocking but plain lined, will be wiped out under re-control/signalling.

Andover ground frame was reduced to just one lever under the Basingstoke resignalling and lost its roof and walls, well it only had the top half walled anyway

[PaulRhB]

It's a crossing box rather than ground frame by the description that can be switched in to become a block post when required. There are loads of variations around the country and I guess in this case the occasional nature of its full capability would mean it was covered by the relief roster. The only requirement is that it's operated by someone qualified in the rules appropriate to its function.

One thing about the modern railway is that I have to hold separate qualifications in hand signalling, ground frame operating and pilotman even though I have to know the skills as part of the main job. When I started those and more just came under the main job but they've been seperated out now that PTS isn't a standard part of the job and we have to have paper proof

[The Stationmaster]

Heddon Mill, between Braunton and Mortehoe & Woolacombe, on the old Ilfracombe line is an interesting example. It was mainly manned by a Crossing Keeper, who operated the manual gates and signals, so can be called a ground frame. But, on summer Saturdays, it was switched in and became a block post and was manned by a Signalman, so was a Signal Box.  So what is the correct definition for it?

 

It was a ground level building, with a LSWR Knee Frame.

It wasn't unique in that respect Paul, there were also some examples up in the north-east I understand and there are of course current examples on the ECML where a number of crossing boxes have emergency panels and can thus become signalboxes in the event of remote control failures.  I think the other Paul has explained the situation pretty clearly in that basically it's a crossing box which can become a signalbox and has to be manned by someone qualified to the appropriate level for the job it's doing.

 

In the past Crossing Keeper was a grade on its own but Relief Signalmen were used to cover crossing boxes or other sorts of crossing keeper arrangements unless there were sufficient crossings of that status to justify their own relief staff.  And of course many Crossing Keeper's posts - especially thos with a cottage were in essence continuously manned by the resident Crossing Keeper (e.g Tisbury Gates).

[PaulRhB]

And the chap who bought Tisbury Gates cottage helped restore the crossing box thanks to a temporary fence, and to boot he's most helpful when there's a problem down there

Hopefully if they ever do away with the box it will be sold to the cottage owner as a summerhouse and remain in situ as it does look very good and the S&T keep it in tip top condition.

[The Stationmaster]

And the chap who bought Tisbury Gates cottage helped restore the crossing box thanks to a temporary fence, and to boot he's most helpful when there's a problem down there

Hopefully if they ever do away with the box it will be sold to the cottage owner as a summerhouse and remain in situ as it does look very good and the S&T keep it in tip top condition.

A little story about Tisbury Gates.  Back in my time in the area the Crossing Keeper (resident in the cottage) was a chap called Sid Dunn - if my memory is working correctly.  Anyway a local car club of some description used to organise an annual tresaure hunt/rally type event which in some most years passed over the crossing at some time or other late on a Saturday night.

 

We received a very nice letter one year thanking us for the great assistance they had received from the Crossing Keeper in dealing with the gates for them late at night and mentioning in passing that they hoped we didn't mind but they had slipped him a few £s for his help.  We didn't have the heart to tell them that he was only doing what he was supposed to do but I know for a fact that he was more than happy to have been given a £20 tip for 'helping out'.