Nottingham to Grantham

[Rob F]

I was wondering why the linespeed on the Nottingham to Grantham line seems so low. The train just ambles along, even the non-stop services on the Liverpool Norwich services fail to get up to any sort of speed. There doesn't seem to be curvature of any note and gradients are minimal.

 

There seems to be little reason why this couldn't be a 90mph railway from the Trent crossing to the outskirts of Grantham but it is far short of this at the moment. Given that traffic on this route is booming, with EMT describing this as their 'second main line', the extended journey times might be considered surprising. I assume the speed is down to the condition of the infrastructure, be that signalling, track quality, level crossings etc. I wonder how much investment would be needed to bring this line up to a modern standard. The thought also occurs that maybe EMT are not pushing for this as it might encourage more Nottingham to London passengers to travel via Grantham to King's Cross.

 

Rob

[Edwin_m]

I would guess for the Liverpool-Norwich, timetabling has a lot to do with it. 

 

The times at Nottingham are moreorless dictated by the journey to/from Liverpool, particularly the need for a reasonable turnaround time there and interaction with other services on the CLC (30min apart from the Transpennine with stoppers in between).  Extended to Grantham these timings mean that the trains pass each other near the station. 

 

However they can only use platform 4 at Grantham in both directions, and there is also a need to make sure the Norwich train is ready and waiting to drop into its path on the ECML at the requisite time.  The Liverpool train must also be able to get off the ECML before being caught up by the next 125mph train, without its route into platform 4 being blocked by the Norwich.  For these reasons, if the train towards Norwich is on time it will normally wait outside Grantham until the Liverpool train passes, then draw forward for a relatively long station stop before continuing towards Peterborough.  So there is no real reason to run at full tilt from Nottingham to Grantham. 

 

I don't use this train from Grantham to Nottingham so often, but it typically arrives at Nottingham about 10min ahead of its departure time, which is plenty even allowing the time to attach another unit.  So I guess there is no particular hurry in the other direction either. 

 

Recently 2min was taken out of the journey north/west of Nottingham to reflect line speed improvements between Nottingham and Trowell, but this was taken as longer dwell time in Nottingham rather than changing the times further east.  Nottingham-Grantham could possibly be accelerated by 5min or so in each direction, but this would mean the Norwich train passing through Grantham before the Liverpool train with a severe risk of delay to the former being exacerbated or transferred to the latter.  It would also require a recast of the ECML timetable to move the paths on the double track between Grantham and Stoke to suit the revised timings. 

 

Incidentally this was one of the routes given 90mph speeds for Sprinters during the Regional Railways era and I believe this limit still applies. 

[Catkins]

The Liverpool - Norwich EMT timetable is one that does throw up the occasional 'curve ball' with some units running up fast to Peterborough, but then waiting outside the Yard to cross over to platform 4, yet if they run up relief (slow) they cross and run straight into platform 4.

 

The other factor to consider is the 'direct' Nottingham to Skegness services that seem to provide an all stations (excluding Grantham) service on the line, and that is a slow service.

 

I think that if they did want to speed up the Grantham - Nottingham section, it could be argued that a Grantham stop could be missed out of the timetable, with any Grantham passengers connecting with the EMT service at Peterborough, or doing Nottingham-Grantham-Sleaford-Spalding-Peterborough, but that would then alter the times after Peterborough, which would affect the West Anglian mainline around Ely, and the Great Eastern Mainline at Norwich.

[great central]

As both Edwin and Catkin mention above, it's impossible to take the Nottingham-Grantham section of the route in isolation.

Granted there are sections of line with 75-80mph speed limits, but the whole section is very dependent on what happens elsewhere.

I'll try to explain the various factors at work.

Starting from Liverpool, we leave 5 minutes behind a Virgin service to London which uses the same line as far as Allerton Junction. We're then 3 minutes ahead of the stopping service to Manchester Oxford Road, which arrives there a couple of minutes in front of the TPE Liverpool-Scarborough service.

Arriving at Oxford Road we have to slot in with Liverpool-Manchester Airport services via Chat Moss. North Wales-Manchester services, freight to and from Trafford Park, TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland, TPE Newcastle-Blackpool(?). All those before our next service comes along. If I've missed any p[ease forgive me I'm only there for a few minutes!

Leaving Manchester Piccadilly platform 13 we have to cross right over before Stockport. Avoiding the Virgin London service, anything coming from the Crewe direction at Slade Lane junction, Northern stopping services to Chester, Stoke on Trent, Buxton. Cross Country services to Birmingham and the South coast.

Having left Stockport we've got the Hope Valley to ourselves, not quite, there's TPE Sheffield-Manchester Airport services, freight not least to and from Earles sidings and Dove Holes, as well as the two hourly Manchester-Sheffield stopper.

Arriving at Dore for the run into Sheffield, we have our service coming the other way, two Sheffield-St Pancras services each hour, Cross Country services on the North East-South West corridor, the Nottingham-Leeds Northern service and more freight, all these to be fitted in with twice going into and coming out of Sheffield again.

After Chesterfield it does get a bit easier, there's not a huge amount of freight down the Erewash and only ours and Northerns Leeds passenger services.

Onwards to Nottingham, at Radford Junction we mix with the Robin Hood line's twice an hour service, then at Mansfield junction we have Nottingham-St Pancras twice hourly, Lincoln-Leicester, Nottingham-Matlock hourly. Cross country run two services an hour to Birmingham or Cardiff. There's then several Lindsay oil tank trains each day as well as the Boston steel trains most days and assorted other freight at various times.

Eastbound from Nottingham, there's not too much, our Liverpool-Norwich service and the Nottingham-Skegness which has a variable stopping pattern through the day. You then have a the single track approach to Grantham which has to take a Liverpool-Norwich in each direction and for most of the day a Nottingham-Skegness as well. As has been mentioned above this does create something of a bottleneck, especially if something's running late.

We now have to cross the ECML, we're limited to 90mph unless we've got a 156 which is 75mph, all other passenger services are 125mph. I don't know the service pattern on East Coast but we're often passed by three or four of their services between Grantham and Peterborough. Oh, there's Hull Trains and Grand Central to add as well. We also need to fit with a sometimes quite heavy freight service as well.

Next is Peterborough, Cross Country's Birmingham-Stansted Airport service joins for the run to Ely, as well as the two hourly AGA Peterborough-Ipswich service, which is scheduled to leave about 5 minute behind us. If we've lost time up to here, we have to follow it to Ely, we often have passengers for this, missing it means a two hour wait!

The freight workings become more intense now with containers for the East Anglian ports, stone to Norwich and Ely, where we cross the Kings Cross-Kings Lynn FCC service, through what is little more than a single line junction at Ely North.

If we're late into Ely, we could finish up behind the Cambridge-Norwich stopper, meaning an even later arrival at Norwich, which in turn could well mean a late start on the return run to Liverpool, having also avoided impacting on the AGA London-Norwich services at the single line over Trowse swingbridge

 

All this happens pretty much hourly through the day, the service starts with an empty stock working from Nottingham-Liverpool around 04.00 and finally finishes with the arrival in Nottingham of the last one back around 00.40.

Who'd be a timetable planner!!

 

Edit, missed the bit about Trowse.

[Edwin_m]

Just thinking.  What if they built at platform 5 out in the buddleias at Grantham, together with a proper double junction to the ECML (train departing south from P4 simultaneously with one arriving into P5 from south) and preferably double track through onto the Nottingham branch?  A flat junction is used most efficiently if trains to/from the diverging route pass each other on the junction, so with a timetable recast this would create one extra down ECML path in the Grantham area (since at present both the Norwich and the Liverpool trains block the ECML separately at Grantham, and these would now be simultaneous). 

 

I've never heard this suggested in any of the various ECML upgrade proposals, so perhaps I'm missing something here or maybe the ECML bottleneck is somewhere else like Werrington or Newark. 

[Catkins]

That's not a bad idea Edwin, but south of Grantham the East Coast Mainline is double track until it clears Stoke Summit, where it the gets quadruple tracks.

Any services heading south could be crossed over to the 'Up Goods Loop' which only goes as far as the road bridge - I think, any services heading north would have to be looped before the summit, and then run hard into the down loop at Grantham.

The biggest pinch point, for this service, in the Grantham area is Stoke Tunnel.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I used to commute on this route, and I always thought that the biggest killer was taking 10 minutes to do the last 5 miles from Radcliffe in to Nottingham. After Netherfield it shares the ponderously slow ex Midland line from Lincoln.

 

We now have to cross the ECML, we're limited to 90mph unless we've got a 156 which is 75mph

 

Is the timetable based around 156 timings? These services were all 156 at one point, and they still used to turn up quite a bit in the days of Central trains without losing time.

[Friar Tuck]

The train service from Grantham to Nottingham has no competition as, I believe, there are no through bus services and the canal is unnavigable for most of its length. I wonder what benefit it would be to EMT to speed things up.

[Butler Henderson]

this happens pretty much hourly through the day, the service starts with an empty stock working from Nottingham-Liverpool around 04.00

And therein lies another of the great madness of privatisation.

[Catkins]

The train service from Grantham to Nottingham has no competition as, I believe, there are no through bus services and the canal is unnavigable for most of its length. I wonder what benefit it would be to EMT to speed things up.

There is competition - it's called the A52 and a private car.

You are right about the direct bus service, but you can get one via Melton Mowbray.

Whilst the train is the quickest option between Grantham and Nottingham, and it is well used to boot, EMT have no real incentive to speed journeys up on the route.

[pete_mcfarlane]

There used to be direct buses, but they did the usual bus thing of serving every village between the two places and taking three times as long as the train. So nobody used them as a through service.

 

If EMT need to sort anything on this line, it's the Sunday service. No service in the morning except during the summer, and random gaps during the afternoon. It could also do with a later train or two on the other days of the week. I guess this may change once the signal boxes close and the line doesn't need 5 signalmen to operate.

 

But, to give EMT their due, the timetable is a lot better than the fairly rubbish one inherited from BR. For example there were no trains from Grantham to Nottingham from 14:00 until about 16:45, and fewer trains off peak than during the peak. 

[RedgateModels]

Ah, it's been a long time since I ran from one of two churches in Nottingham city centre to get a "bug" to Grantham for the day - the 11:11 from Peterborough was always a Deltic. Chocolate from the machine, sandwiches and a flask of tea kept me going until home time.

 

Yes, the service to Grantham was slow even in those days .....

[Guest B Exam]

The reason for slow journey times is the signalling infrastructure.

 

Bingham is now the fringe box to Derby IECC after Netherfield Jn and Rectory Jn boxes were abolished last year. The next box east is Bottesford West with a intermediate block signal between Bingham and Bottesford in each direction.

 

Westbound the xx.45 off Grantham (ex Skegness) is usually caught up by the xx.58 from Grantham (ex Norwich) at Rectory Jn due to the amount of slack in the timetable. The Norwich service usually ends up waiting at Netherfield. Also the Lincoln-Leicester service needs to be threaded between the two at Netherfield Jn. As the Lincoln-Leicester service shares the same platform at Nottingham as the Norwich-Liverpool, but departs Nottingham first, its imperitive that trains arrive at Nottingham in the right order...

 

Times at Netherfield Jn:

 

xx.16 from Skegness

xx.25 from Lincoln

xx.29 from Norwich

xx.33 to Lincoln

xx.39 to Norwich

xx.50 to Skegness

 

When the line is resignalled in 2016 and transferred to Derby IECC, the line will become bi-directional running between Nottingham and Nottingham Branch Jn at Grantham, rather than as far as Rectory Jn as is now. As for line speed it will gradually be upgraded to 75mph running in the coming years.

[Edwin_m]

The 0926 arrival into Nottingham from Norwich this morning was within a minute or so of time despite being a 156, with 18min of dwell time including attaching a 158 for the onward journey (which would also have been on time at Stockport if not for signals at Edale).  For some reason this one is allowed less time from Grantham than most of the others. 

 

Just checked the Sectional Appendix and it is indeed a mixture of 60 and 60/75 speeds.  Was it ever made up to 90 for Sprinters as I suggested above, or was I imagining this?