How do I wire this crossover to the yard in DC?

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

I seem to have a mental jam with this one and as you guys helped me so well last time I thought I would share my problem.

 

Wiring is DC common return. The upper rail is the common (for both lines....). The turnout is powered by a tortoise which gives two switches and I have added a SPST microswitch to the turnout giving 3 switches activated by the movement of the point - is this enough?

 

The main lines are independently powered, lets call them Feed 1 and Feed 2.  All the breaks are in the logical places - I hope.........

 

A line diagram would be fantastic!

 

Thanks in advance, last time I posted with a double junction problem everyone (esp Suzie) was so helpful.

 

Cheers Tony

[hayfield]

The turnout is just standard with a wire to the Vee from what ever switch you are using to change the polarity when the switch is thrown

 

The diamond is easy also as both stock rails polarity remains the same, where as the Vees on it will always be opposite to each other and changes according to which route is set on the turnout. I would use two other microswitches or a relay to alternate the polarity of the diamond's Vees accordingly.

 

The left hand Vee on the diamond would take power from either the bottom rail of the upper track or the upper rail of the lower track

The right hand Vee will take its power from both rails of the upper track. You could use a double throw double throw switch for the diamond, but that would take 2 switches to set the routes

[Rail-Online]

John,

 

Yes I agree the turnout is easy, but the complication is the stock rails need to be connected to either the feed to the top track - (Down Main) when turnout is normal, or the bottom track (Up Main) when the turnout is reversed.

That is the bit I am having a mental block about.

 

Tony

[hayfield]

Tony

 

It all depends on how you wire the section, I personally would keep the top section on a separate feed from the bottom. To run from the  bottom line into the yard you would need to flick both sections to the same controller. 

[jamie92208]

I use a relay fired by the ortoise in a similar situation.  The K and V crossings that are not on the common return will need to be lectrically isolated but a simple 4 pole relay would do it and the crossing vee on the point as well.

 

 

Jamie

[DCB]

Assuming you don't have tiny back to back clearances you can pair W and X and Y and Z, if things are tight then separate them but feed B Z  and W A from the lower track when crossing over and  X B and A Y from the upper when not crossing,    A four pole relay or four pole rotary switch will do equally well   I always arrange generous overlaps to avoid collisions....

[Suzie]

Tony

 

Refering to the previous thread:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/20299-how-do-i-wire-a-double-junction/

 

Everything is the same as before but you don't have point 1 so you can eliminate the switching around it, all the key switching is in conjunction with point 2, so you will need an extra microswitch to make it up to 4-pole. As before make sure that the point is set straight before sending anything through the crossing on the other line.

[Miss Prism]

A slightly tidier version of Suzie's d.c. diagram. The diamond switching is probably best done from a 4PDT relay driven from an auxiliary of the Tortoise.

 

 

 

[DCB]

Returning to this post as I installed similar crossings on a friends layout 29 or so years ago, the rails W X Y and Z  are single rails and not divided in the middle as shown in Miss Prism's drawing.  If they are not divided in the centre there is a danger of shorts at the crossing end if the rails are paired, so one may need a 6 pole switch or relay, in fact I think my live frogged Peco Diamonds have 6 pole relays, though I haven't looked at them for the last 25 years or so.   

 

So adding in live frogs and the wiring becomes very complicated,  4 poles control feed to the feed A and B and Frogs C and D, two more connect either rail W or X to Frog C and rail Y or Z to Frog D,  now dont ask me to do a wiring diagram because wiring the things up is difficult enough without a diagram!, but I am afraid Miss Prism's diagram over simplifies and assumes rail breaks that do not exist.

`

[Suzie]

A slightly tidier version of Suzie's d.c. diagram. The diamond switching is probably best done from a 4PDT relay driven from an auxiliary of the Tortoise.

 

turnout-wiring-8.gif

 

It is not quite the same, but a lot tidier! Since the 'top' rail is the common return you can lose the middle set of changeover contacts and the insulated joiners that go with that 'K' section. Power routing has been lost but can be regained for the yard spur by leaving out an insulated joiner to the frog.

[Crosland]

 

 I am afraid Miss Prism's diagram over simplifies and assumes rail breaks that do not exist.

 

It looks very much like hand laid track to me, in which case it is fairly safe to assume that it has breaks in all the right places, rather than where Peco put them in their RTR track.

 

Andrew

[DCB]

I blew the photo up as large as I could and could not see any rail breaks along the rails marked W X Y or Z,  The Peco Code 100 large diamond does not have them nor does the set track diamond both have a short plastic extension to the rail for insulation and plastic check rails,  He may get away with it if the rails I marked W X are electrically common with the C frog  and Y and Z are common electrically with the D frog and the electrical breaks in the diagram are simply the flange ways at the rail ends but I would not risk it.   It may well be that as it is hand made it may need more rail breaks if it is to work reliably.

[Miss Prism]

It is not quite the same, but a lot tidier! Since the 'top' rail is the common return you can lose the middle set of changeover contacts and the insulated joiners that go with that 'K' section. Power routing has been lost but can be regained for the yard spur by leaving out an insulated joiner to the frog.

 

Fair enough. I didn't want to make an assumption over which flavour of common return was being used. If both controllers do share the same common return, then it becomes simpler. I haven't included the power routing further into the up main loop, because I don't know what extra feeding arrangements might apply there (yard controller??). Not sure what you meant by "losing the insulated joiners that go with that K section".

 

 

 

[Grovenor]

 

I didn't want to make an assumption over which flavour of common return was being used.

It would not have been an assumption since it was specified by the OP in the first post. Anyway, now a good clear diagram of correct wiring practice, with rail breaks where they should be.

Regards

Keith

[DCB]

With reference to Miss Prisms post, The wiring diagram simply does not correspond with the Diamond shown in the photograph, the rails W X Y and Z I annotated in my post are not shown.  Instead  Miss Prism's diagram suggests they are extensions of the frogs C and D and knuckles A and B and each have a rail break part way along whereas tis is clearly not the case.  They are separate rails requiring separate feeds and I cannot see any rail breaks in the photo provided, indeed they show a check rail integral with the crossing rails which at times would be at the opposite polarity to the adjacent running rail unless the rails were separately switched

 

They can be paired W A Y and X B Z or C W X and Y Z D  if desired but either way with fine scale you will get shorts across the wheels between positive rail and negative check rail at the frog or at the other end, the name of which In have never known.  Pairing is fine with Peco code 100 etc where there are isolating blocks but not fine scale.  Inhad a look last evening and my live frogged Peco diamonds have 4 pole relays but they have plastic check rails,

 

4 pole relays are sods to wire up, you need a diagram of the contacts rather than a "Wiring Diagram" to make sense of it so I wish you the very best of luck wiring a 6 pole version ( see photo)  A 2 way 6 pole rotary switch may be a better answer.

[coachmann]

Thank goodness for Insulfrog diamonds! All strength to you electrical wizards though...........

[Grovenor]

 

The wiring diagram simply does not correspond with the Diamond shown in the photograph, the rails W X Y and Z I annotated in my post are not shown.  Instead  Miss Prism's diagram suggests they are extensions of the frogs C and D and knuckles A and B and each have a rail break part way along whereas tis is clearly not the case.  They are separate rails requiring separate feeds and I cannot see any rail breaks in the photo provided, indeed they show a check rail integral with the crossing rails which at times would be at the opposite polarity to the adjacent running rail unless the rails were separately switched

The diamond in the OP's photo is clearly built using the ply and rivet system to fine standards, and, although the rail gaps are not very clear they do seem to be in the normal places for hand built track as per Miss Prism's diagram. If not, anyone who can build track to that standard can easily put gaps in the required places.

I have marked up the photo to show where the rail gaps appear to be.

Keith

[Suzie]

 

Fair enough. I didn't want to make an assumption over which flavour of common return was being used. If both controllers do share the same common return, then it becomes simpler. I haven't included the power routing further into the up main loop, because I don't know what extra feeding arrangements might apply there (yard controller??). Not sure what you meant by "losing the insulated joiners that go with that K section".

 

turnout-wiring-7.gif

 

I think that this is the best solution and no need for any more switching.

[Rail-Online]

Thanks Guys,

 

Sorry i have been away for a little while, bit i can now wire it up. To answer questions raised, yes it is rivet & ply Brook Smith components in 18.83 gauge. Yes there are gaps just as shown in Grovenor's post and the crossing 'V's and wing rails are all bonded as is usual in ply and rivet. Sorry the pic was not any clearer -it was limited by file size on uploads.

 

I am quite happy to use 12V Relays and that is the way I will go forward from now on.  This is actually one of three crossovers, the other two have single slips instead of the diamond, in true Midland style.

 

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

Cheers Tony

[jamie92208]

Thanks Guys,

 

Sorry i have been away for a little while, bit i can now wire it up. To answer questions raised, yes it is rivet & ply Brook Smith components in 18.83 gauge. Yes there are gaps just as shown in Grovenor's post and the crossing 'V's and wing rails are all bonded as is usual in ply and rivet. Sorry the pic was not any clearer -it was limited by file size on uploads.

 

I am quite happy to use 12V Relays and that is the way I will go forward from now on.  This is actually one of three crossovers, the other two have single slips instead of the diamond, in true Midland style.

 

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

Cheers Tony

On Lancaster Green Ayre I've got one crossover like yours and one with a single slip built in.  I've used relays for both.  The pointwork is all handbuilt on C & L Plastic sleepers with frogs and crossings bonded.  It does work and all the switching is done by tortoises firing the relays when the points are operated.  It's all done 2 wire but that would probably work with common return.  The single slip just needs treating as a crossing .  What I do to work out the wiring is to compile a route table to show the allowable routes through the section, then label each frog/crossing, that needs to be isolated and make a table that shows what feed goes to each crossing/frog when each route is set.

I include whether points are normal or reversed in the first two columns and it usually shows up very clearly what should be operated  by the relays.

 

Jamie