Loco-hauled Trans-pennine trains via Chat Moss speeds

[GordonC]

I've seen elsewhere on the web that the speed limit on the Chat Moss route between Liverpool and Manchester is meant to be 75mph and 60mph over Chat Moss itself (to be raised to 90mph when the electrification is completed). But what was the speed limit in the loco-hauled days?

 

I remember travelling behind Peaks absolutely thundering out of Liverpool on the Trans-Pennine trains, were they really only doing 75mph? was it just an 'enthusiastic' driver or was the route downgraded after the Trans-Pennine expresses were diverted to go via the CLC line through Warrington Central?

[LMS2968]

Apart from about 20 chains spread either side of Astley crossing and a TSR at Barton(?), the line speed across the Moss is now 75 mph.

 

A friend (an ex-driver with Virgin) and I were talking to the engineers at Astley, as neither of us was terribly impressed with the condition of the track. He told us that there was to be no track improvement: the raised speed limit was simply because of the electrification. We were both at a loss as to how the provision of overhead wires makes the track below suitable for higher speeds!

[Fat Controller]

Apart from about 20 chains spread either side of Astley crossing and a TSR at Barton(?), the line speed across the Moss is now 75 mph.

 

A friend (an ex-driver with Virgin) and I were talking to the engineers at Astley, as neither of us was terribly impressed with the condition of the track. He told us that there was to be no track improvement: the raised speed limit was simply because of the electrification. We were both at a loss as to how the provision of overhead wires makes the track below suitable for higher speeds!

Lower axle-loadings on stock that doesn't have to haul a diesel engine around with it, perhaps? If this were the case, I'd expect to see some sort of differential speed-limit sign to appear, with two or three seperate boards.

[Titan]

The track is only part of the equation when it comes to speed limits. As the limit is due to be increased to 90mph only  after the resignalling in connection with the electrification scheme has been completed, I suspect it might be more to do with signal spacing/visibility.

[LMS2968]

The speed limits don't differentiate between diesel and electric traction, though! They are straight 75 boards, the only split is the tsr at Barton, which is 40/60.

 

And the track still looks too rough for a Hornby Dublo layout!

[coachmann]

Travelled across Chat Moss many times behind steam in the 1950s and 60s and trains didn't seem to be running any slower or faster than on other sections. It is doubtful they reached 75mph anyway.

[Arthur]

I was born and brought up on the edge of the moss (a strange place). My recollection, steam/diesel transition period, is that standing trackside and watching a train approach in the distance, the track seemed to sink under the weight of the train and lift behind it, a kind of wave. May have been an illusion but the track does float on the moss.

[great central]

I recall travelling behind 37s on Manchester-Holyhead/Llandudno services, they went like a true 37 should until getting to Patricroft, then shut off to little more than idling. Reckon they were doing around 60, the loco and coaches rolling and lurching such that I doubt you'd want to go any faster. After leaving Chat Moss we were back to 37 music

[jamie92208]

My memories of going to Liverpool behind Peaks, which were heavy, is that we fair rattled across the moss doing at least 70.

 

Jamie

[Titan]

I was born and brought up on the edge of the moss (a strange place). My recollection, steam/diesel transition period, is that standing trackside and watching a train approach in the distance, the track seemed to sink under the weight of the train and lift behind it, a kind of wave. May have been an illusion but the track does float on the moss.

 

Having done survey work in connection with the recent electrification, I can confirm that the track does indeed appear to still 'float' and that this observation is pretty close to the truth.  I have been stood lineside at many places over the rail network whilst trains pass, and this is the only place where I have felt the ground I am standing on turn to jelly as a train goes by!!  Many of the OLE structures are portals in this area, so the masts could be put far enough away from the tracks to avoid interfering with Stephensons floaty bit. There was even a special type of pile used to deal with the somewhat fluid ground conditions!

 

The result is that unfortunately you are likely to bounce and sway quite a bit at 90mph, although not dangerously so.  I do hope NR keep on top of the maintenance of the new OLE, because whilst there is an allowance for sway of the pan in the design, I suspect in this area that it will be using up more of the tolerance than usual!

[Jon Fitness]

I was born and brought up on the edge of the moss (a strange place). My recollection, steam/diesel transition period, is that standing trackside and watching a train approach in the distance, the track seemed to sink under the weight of the train and lift behind it, a kind of wave. May have been an illusion but the track does float on the moss.

I thought it was just me seeing that! I used to work at Astley box in the early 80's and anything loco hauled seemed to plough along like a ship with a bow wave of ballast in front of it! The whole formation rattled and and vibrated as the Deltics on the Newcastle or York - Liverpools went past...

Happy Days!

Here' a class 25 passing Astley with an empty van train for Red Bank...

JF

Edit to add gratuitous pic from my past!