Unrebuilt GWR ROD 2-8-0s

[Darwinian]

Simple questions, not so easy answer I suspect.

 

I'm thinking of modelling one of the non-swindonised ROD locos bought by the GWR in 1925 but not given the full Swindon treatment and run until clapped out (1929-31?)

 

So what colour would these locos have been (still black?)?

 

What insignia (if any) would the tenders have carried?

 

There is a very tempting photo of 3085 in GWRJ 90 P107 of 3085 in the sort of condition I have in mind. There appears to be a block of paint blanking out an older insignia on the tender but no "Great Western" Anyone know if this might have been fairly common on this batch?

The ex Taff Vale A class Chimney would be a problem unless someone can suggest something similar.

Markits do the smokebox door wheel (Unless I can get an early LNER one)

Straps on the smokebox where the Westinghouse pump used to be would be easy.

 

Is anything else different to the Bachmann BR(E) version? No topfeed on these GWR ones.

 

Adrian.

 

 

[MarkAustin]

Simple questions, not so easy answer I suspect.

 

I'm thinking of modelling one of the non-swindonised ROD locos bought by the GWR in 1925 but not given the full Swindon treatment and run until clapped out (1929-31?)

 

So what colour would these locos have been (still black?)?

 

What insignia (if any) would the tenders have carried?

 

There is a very tempting photo of 3085 in GWRJ 90 P107 of 3085 in the sort of condition I have in mind. There appears to be a block of paint blanking out an older insignia on the tender but no "Great Western" Anyone know if this might have been fairly common on this batch?

The ex Taff Vale A class Chimney would be a problem unless someone can suggest something similar.

Markits do the smokebox door wheel (Unless I can get an early LNER one)

Straps on the smokebox where the Westinghouse pump used to be would be easy.

 

Is anything else different to the Bachmann BR(E) version? No topfeed on these GWR ones.

 

Adrian.

The history of these engines is complex, and you reall;y need the account in the RCTS "The Locomotices of the Great Western Railway" for a full picture (If you haven't got this PM me with you email address and I'll scan the relevant pages). In short, painted black, lettered as standard (Fox transfers do Great (crest) Western transfers for black locomotives)---I suspect that in the picture you mentioned, the lettering was simply obscured by grime. Most if not all got GWR standard safety valves and cover, and (at least) 3085/6/9/99 got TVR "A" class chimneys. Again, few if any got a top-feed, and they were basically run with minimal maintenance until they needed an expensive repair---and all had gone by June 1930 except the last (3093) which staggered through to December 1931.

[Darwinian]

The history of these engines is complex, and you reall;y need the account in the RCTS "The Locomotices of the Great Western Railway" for a full picture (If you haven't got this PM me with you email address and I'll scan the relevant pages). In short, painted black, lettered as standard (Fox transfers do Great (crest) Western transfers for black locomotives)---I suspect that in the picture you mentioned, the lettering was simply obscured by grime. Most if not all got GWR standard safety valves and cover, and (at least) 3085/6/9/99 got TVR "A" class chimneys. Again, few if any got a top-feed, and they were basically run with minimal maintenance until they needed an expensive repair---and all had gone by June 1930 except the last (3093) which staggered through to December 1931.

Thanks Mark,

 

If the RCTS volume is the Absorbed locos one then I do have a copy, I didn't think to hunt it out while I was in the loft. If not I probably don't as I only have a couple of the other volumes.

The picture in GWRJ is of No 3085 c 1928 (if caption date is correct) and it clearly has a straight edged, square cornered patch on the tender where the lettering should be. This appears to be a lighter shade than the rest of the loco/tender

 

The whole loco is very grubby with light staining around the washout plugs running down the firebox sides. It has a GWR safety valve cover but no top feed. There are also leading piston rod sleeves on the cylinders as well as the aforementioned ex-westinghouse pump locating straps. Oh, and the buffers have the ex WD webbed housings.

 

This was a apparently a Camarthen loco and I really need a Cardiff one to give a feeble excuse for it to appear in the ex Rhymney district.

 

Adrian

 

Adrian

[Coach bogie]

The new Great Western Journal carries a detailed article on the RODS including images of the 'run down' batch.

 

At first only 20 engines were purchased in 1919, the others were on hire, some of which had TWO numberplates, the original ROD number and the GWR number underneath.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[69843]

One of the RODs that saw service on the GWR (ROD 1909, NBL 21886/1918) ended up working here in Australia for J&A Brown, as their No.17. The locomotive lasted up until 1967 before being withdrawn and scrapped.

[RosiesBoss]

G’day all,

 

I have been fascinated by the RODs since I first saw them in Hexham (NSW) in the 1960s. I later learned that one of them, J&AB #17 (NBL 21886, ROD 1909) had been hired to the GWR in 1919-1922 and had run as GWR 3063.

 

Over time, I collected whatever references I could, to learn more about them. These include:

1. RCTS “Locomotives of the Great Western Railway”, Part 10: Absorbed Engines (RCTS, 1966)
2. J.R.P.Rowledge: “Heavy Goods Engines of the War Department”, Vol.1 ROD 2-8-0 (Springmead Books, 1977)
3. Brian Reed: “Loco Profile 21: R.O.D. 2-8-0s” (Profile Publications, 1972)
4. John Lewis: “Great Western Way” (HMRS, 2^nd ed., 2009)
5. Gifford H.Eardley: “The Railways of J.& A. Brown” (ARHS, 1972)
6. R.G.Preston “The Richmond Vale Railway” (Shepp Books,1990)

From the above, I have learned:

• Cardiff had an allocation of the following RODs in 1928: 3002/16/8/9/35/6/74-6/83 (Ref.2)
• 3050-99 were painted ROD black (Refs. 1, 4)
• 3050-99 were all fitted with GWR safety valves (Ref.1)
• 3085/6/9/99 were fitted with Taff Vale “A” class chimneys (Ref.1)

Such photos as I have seen so far rarely have tender lettering shown clearly. GWJ #90 has not yet been published in Australia, but there is a photo of 3085(ROD 1734) in Ref.2 , showing painted patches on the tender and a “GWR” chimney. Clearer patches are visible on 3089 (ROD 1947) in Ref.1.

 

3043 (ROD 2155), one of the RODs hired in 1919-22, was photographed by the GWR in 1920. This image was reproduced in Ref.3 and shows “Great Western” (no crest) on the tender. It still has the original safety valves.

 

There is a photo of  J&AB #17 (NBL 21886, ROD 1909) in Ref. 5, taken in 1965, that shows it running in standard ROD condition, with original safety valves, indicating that GWR valves were not fitted when on hire as GWR 3063. Another image of the same loco in Ref 6, taken in 1954, is a rare rear view, showing the tender – still in original condition.

 

If you are making a model of one of the 3050-99 group, don’t forget to use the European buffers, as adopted by the ROD and seen in many of their images.

 

Here is an image of one of the last working survivors, still with original buffers:

 

 

I’m sure others can fill in a few more gaps, but I hope the above is of some help.

 

Regards,

Rob

[69843]

In the small article in the April 1997 issue of Australian Model Railway Magazine, there is a small table listing the detail differences of the J&A RODs, and 17 is actually listed as having plain buffers, and not the French type. It may be worth cross-referencing this to see if this was done before or after arriving here, but it's an interesting note (16, 19 and 22 are also listed as the same).

[Darwinian]

In the small article in the April 1997 issue of Australian Model Railway Magazine, there is a small table listing the detail differences of the J&A RODs, and 17 is actually listed as having plain buffers, and not the French type. It may be worth cross-referencing this to see if this was done before or after arriving here, but it's an interesting note (16, 19 and 22 are also listed as the same).

 

I think we have a confusion here. According to the article in GWRJ:

 

The GWR 1928 locos (as per the shed allocations)  were not exported to Australia. I think that the exported exGWR locos (including No17) came from the batch loaned to the GWR by the war department, given running numbers 3020 - 3099 and 6000 - 6003 and returned in 1921-22.

 

The Loco 3063 in the 1928 shed allocation list (and 3085 that I have been looking at) was a different one to the one sent to Australia. The GWR  purchased a batch of from the war department in 1925 "Swindonised" the best of the batch  and gave them numbers 3020 to 3049.

 

The rest of the purchased locos were numbered 3050 to 3099 and run until they were unusable and were scrapped. These appear to have kept mostly GCR/WD appearance and only gained ex Taff Vale Chimneys and GWR safety valve bonnets as commented above.

 

Building a model of one of this later batch will require a suitable buffer. Any ideas anyone?

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

I have now found my copy of the RCTS bible and have reached the following conclusions.

 

Buffers: The GWR self contained type with 6 flanges look pretty similar to the WD ones although slightly more parallel in the body. In the absence of anything better they will have to do. I've got a safety valve bonnet (cast).

 

In the RCTS book ROD 1947 as GWR 3089 is shown in the as patched up and sent out condition. Again there appears to be painting over of the WD number and insignia, a GWR numberplate and power classification (Blue(?) D).

 

I'll go for 3083 which lasted until 8/29 and hope no one finds a picture of it with a Taff vale chimney (although I wonder if they all got them as the A class would have been getting Swindon boilers at about the same time). No idea where I could find one of those, not even the SEF U1 has the right type.

 

 

I have also checked J&A Brown No. 17 and it was indeed the first GWR 3063 on loan from July 1919 until 9/21  based at Neath according to the RCTS volume / GWRJ allocation list. The post 1925 3063 was ROD No. 1951 (NBL22009) on sales list of GWR on 6/29 and at Old Oak in 1928.

 

Adrian

[RosiesBoss]

In the small article in the April 1997 issue of Australian Model Railway Magazine, there is a small table listing the detail differences of the J&A RODs, and 17 is actually listed as having plain buffers, and not the French type. It may be worth cross-referencing this to see if this was done before or after arriving here, but it's an interesting note (16, 19 and 22 are also listed as the same).

G'day, 69843,

 

I've checked the ARM article, which states "At various times, Nos 17 and 19 had parallel shank buffers."

 

Bob Driver's photo of ROD 17 on page 108 of  R.G.Preston “The Richmond Vale Railway” (Shepp Books,1990), taken in 1965, clearly shows ribbed buffers. John Buckland's photo of ROD 17 on page 44 of Gifford H.Eardley: “The Railways of J.& A. Brown” (ARHS, 1972) clearly shows parallel buffers on the tender. I doubt that the buffers were changed in England, before export to Oz.

 

It comes down to the need to check photos of your chosen prototype before you finalise the details of its model.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[Darwinian]

G'day, 69843,

 

I've checked the ARM article, which states "At various times, Nos 17 and 19 had parallel shank buffers."

 

Bob Driver's photo of ROD 17 on page 108 of  R.G.Preston “The Richmond Vale Railway” (Shepp Books,1990), taken in 1965, clearly shows ribbed buffers. John Buckland's photo of ROD 17 on page 44 of Gifford H.Eardley: “The Railways of J.& A. Brown” (ARHS, 1972) clearly shows parallel buffers on the tender. I doubt that the buffers were changed in England, before export to Oz.

 

It comes down to the need to check photos of your chosen prototype before you finalise the details of its model.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

Thanks for that Rob.

 

Yes a picture would be good unfortunately pictures of the locos the GWR only kept for 1925-30 are a bit thin on the ground I suspect.

Interesting that No.17 had parallel shanked buffers on the tender. None of the photo's I have seen show the tender buffers on the non westernised locos. The European buffers look a lot like a dean/churchward buffer but with ribs on the tapered part. I migh try that approach.

 

Looks like leaving the parallel buffers on the tender migth be OK. I don't know what the tenders were built with.

 

I am prepared to accept a "probable" appearance for a loco for which I don't have a photograph. None of the one's I do have photo's of are right for S.Wales sheds.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

Well the postperson delivered a nice new Bachmann 04 this morning. A bargain example from a well known Liverpool box shifter (after all no point paying top prices if I'm just going to destroy it's collectable value by carving it about).

 

A careful survey against photo's revealed a bit more work to do than I anticipated to begin with:

 

Chassis: Very little fortunately.

1. Cut away the coupling pocket and adapt the front bogie to look a bit better  .
2. Add front sand pipes
3. Add piston rod tail covers to fronts of cylinders (hope bogie clearance isn't an issue!  )
4. Cut down motion bracket to a simple bar with a single flat step at where the lower step is.

Smokebox: All straightforward (but see below)

1. Remove number plate from door.
2. Remove dart and replace with wheel and handle closure (cast brass one on order)
3. Remove snifting valve behind chimney
4. Move top lamp bracket to in front of chimney
5. Cut LH handrail and add the odd lump that sits on that side (unless this was part of the westinghouse brakes  but it seems to still be on these patched up locos although removed form Swindonised ones)
6. Add extra handrail knob to support front of handrail next to this object.
7. Add lance cock to lower left (didn't they all have these?)
8. Add ex Westinghouse pump support straps on RH side.

Footplate: More simple stuff

1. Couplings (Dinghams in my case)
2. European type buffers (? see above)
3. Hand rails next to sandbox fillers in centre of splasher (between wheelsets 2 and 3)
4. Footsteps below sandbox fillers in centre of splasher
5. Remove the vac pipe from the front (there isn't one on the tender anyway!)

Body: Some problems here

1. Move whistle to top front of cab (think I've got one of these in my bits box)
2. GWR safety valve cover. Should be a tall narrow type but I don't have one. Will have to see what the one I do have looks like or find a source.
3. Add a pimple to the top/front of dome (most of the GWR locos seem to have these at this time)
4. Remove blower pipe (?) from RH side - replace handrail knobs on this side at least  .
5. Drat it - new handrail will probably be needed now!
6. Add GWR number plate (Finney so I can have 3077)

Tender: Dead easy

1. Buffers as above
2. Improve /replace coal (except that the coal is a cast weight so if I take it off I'll have to put some weigh inside instead, probably better with the mass lower down anyway)

So probably a day or so's work then the respray  . Although I'll follow the GWRs approach on this one and just try to patch it up. So remove existing markings. Touch up new parts / damage. Paint the patch on the tender in satin black. Apply GWR power disc. Weather liberally!

 

And then

 

Adrian

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Adrian,

 

Does the GWR 04 come with the taller chimney  - which would be necessary for a JA Brown bodge up?  

[Darwinian]

Adrian,

 

Does the GWR 04 come with the taller chimney  - which would be necessary for a JA Brown bodge up?  

 

Looking at the pictures in advertisements the chimney looks the same on all the Bachmann ROD variants. I only have a BR one so cannot compare directly.

 

I have also noticed that the Bachmann one I have has LNER type sandbox filler lids. These are only slightly raised and have a concave top with a bar across. The originals (as on the JA Brown loco?) are simple caps but are a little higher so that's another job. Easy to do with a suitable disc of plasticard or rod.

 

I am still pondering how to do the buffer housings. 3D printing would be an answer but I would have to learn CAD first. It might still be quicker to bodge something from a GWR self contained or from plastic. Gibson Collet buffer heads would be about right I think but lack the hoole in the centre of the face.

 

Adrian

 

 

 

Adrian

[tomparryharry]

Hi Adrian,

 

A bit late in the day, but Mountfords book on Caerphilly Works only lists 3043 as attending there. In respect, however, he doesn't list locos going in for weighing purposes. I suppose that allows just about all of them in....

 

The TV chimmney was a 'later on' modification, IIRC.

 

Only Kings & 47xx not allowed into Caerphilly Works....

 

Ian

[Darwinian]

 

 

"The TV chimmney was a 'later on' modification, IIRC."

 

 

No some of the locos kept and run until failure were fitted with these immediately during the sort out in 1925. There are several pictures of these. Others of the class, including Westernised ones gained them later on, presumabluy as the original chimneys corroded.

 

I'm still stuck with those blasted buffers. I tried to concoct one from brassss tube and palstic tube (so that I could apply plasticard details) but it doesn't look good.

On the plus side i found a suitable safety valve cover in my box of spare loco bits. 

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

And so the dastardly deed begins    .

 

First up the component part breakdown. I hope this will be far enough to do the job. The markings were removed with a fibre-glass burnishing stick.

 

 

Initial hacks =  remove safety valves / whistle and smooth off (files and fine wet and dry). 

 

 

The smokebox door was prised out using a scalpel. The replacement door handle was from "Caley components". The handle is probably a bit too short. I'll have a look at the Markits version when I get a chance. The motion bracket has had the upper step filed off and the width of the plate reduced. The lower step needs reducing further as it was just a small flat plate. The GWR safety valve cover came from the scrap box.

 

 

 

Removing the handrails was straightforward once I remembered how. Heat the knob with soldering iron whilst gently levering away with a fine screwdriver behind the handrail  . Of course I only rememberd this after breaking a couple off trying to pull them out, leving the tail in the hole  Had to get those out by holding the shank of a small drill bit against them and heating that while pressing gently. Some slight scarrring to the firebox side is evident where the soldering iron touched momentarily while doing this.

 

[Darwinian]

More progress in making up the additional bits and pieces. I will need some medium length handrail knobs so hope to get those at Peterborough. Sorry about the picture quality I had to take these with the flash as it's too dark outside.

 

Smokebox door and motion bracket, the latter thineed down to leave a small flat step at the bottom only.

 

Whistle and safety cvlave cover fitted.

 

Sanbox lids from 15thou black plasticards discs (Cut with a sharpened bit of brass tube  )

 

Piston tailrod covers fitted to cylinders. I had to estimate these by comparison to the cylinder lenght, they might be a tad short. Simply brass tube with the whole at one end filled with wire soldered in then rounded off in the mini drill. Mounting plates from a double layer of black plasticard. A test fit suggests that being 00 I will probably get away with these not fouling the pony truck on curves.

 

Finally a reworking of the pony truck to look a bit more like the real thing.

 

I still haven't solved the buffer issue, might have to resort to a temporary bodge until I can.

[Darwinian]

Apart from a few remaining details (eg. replacement lamp brackets) most of the groundwork is done. I have now noticed that the cab roof appears to need another angle iron across near the back end. Not sure how I can do this to match (reasonably) the central one.

 

The buffers fitted are just cast GWR self contained ones with the central hole drilled by hand. They look OK to my eyes from normal viewing distances but one day I hope to replace them with the correct ROD pattern.

 

The damage/additions have been undercoated with Games Workshop Abbadon Black but the whole thing will get a coat of dirty black before the GWR additions are picked out again.

 

 

 

The straps that used to hold the Westinghouse pump were from brass strip.

 

 

The smokebox dart handle probably ought to be a bit longer than this one.

 

 

Buffer beams are only undercoated and couplings to be added.

 

There is a Traintech sound SFX unit in the tender which is rather fun, but little else done to it apart from the matching buffers.

The sound unit didn't like the cold! I brought the loco down from the unheated loft to photograph and the sound unit was dead. Now it has warmed up downstairs it's working again.

 

I took out the DCC mounting plate and cut the wires back to the loco as there is no pickup from the tender.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

A few more recent photos.

Buffer beam now painted and the extra rib added to the roof. I had a bit of black microstrip that was about the right size and followed the existing .line of rivets having checked which side of them to put the strip.

 

 

 

 

Does anyone know if there is an etched version available of the makers plate for the splasher side?

 

Next I think will be a blow over with dirty black to pull the various parts together.

 

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

....The smokebox door was prised out using a scalpel. ....

 

I didn't know the smokebox door was removable. That's given me an idea for the body of 63601 that I've had on the worktop for a while now....

[Darwinian]

OK all this is the final installment I suspect.

 

Front sandpipes added from wire bent to shape and epoxied (is that a verb?) to the cylinder block.

 

The various bits were brought together using G.W. Abbadon Black. The whole loco and tender were weathered with Precision paint's frame dirt using an air brush. The cab windows and makers plates were masked off for this spraying.

 

Once dry the areas on the tender where the original ROD numbering would have been were masked out with Gaugemaster tape and then brush painted with diluted Humbrol satin black.

 

The number plates were made using Martin Finney numberplate etches (hope these are available again soon as they are a godsend when building odd protoptypes).

 

The whole lot was then re-weathered (minus masking) with frame dirt. A mix of frame dirt plus matt black was applied down onto the top of the loco to represent the effects of soot and aerial fallout.

 

I then managed to drop the mechanism onto the body, making a small chip in the boiler and breaking off one of the step assemblies. Fortunately i managed to disguise / repair the damage (it was the side shown!).

 

Frame dirt + dark rust was dry brushed onto the areas around the brakes. Some black was dry brushed downwards around the boiler to add a little texture. I'll leave you all to judge whether you think the result looks like a 1928 ROD as running on the GWR until it failed!

3082 lasted until 1930.

 

 

 

 

Just need to get a crew.

 

Oh, almost forgot, There is a niffty screw fitted mounting for the tender - loco attachment point that can be released to close up the distance. I closed mine up by about a half.

 

Darwinian.

[Darwinian]

Two years on and now Bachmann announce a ROD condition version of thier ROD 2-8-0.  If it is like the picture on thier web site this version would be an absolute doddle once it comes out, correct buffers too. Don't think I can justify two fo the beasts.

[DCB]

It's hard to understand why the GW would run perfectly good 2-8-0s into the ground instead of fitting vacuum brakes and using them like 28XXs.  Could the GW drivers lack of understanding of how to drive these GC locos have been the cause?  From reading engineman's reminiscences from oop north  It seems they liked long cut offs and small regulator openings.....    The original GC versions did a fair bit of excursion passenger traffic.

[Miss Prism]

It's hard to understand why the GW would run perfectly good 2-8-0s into the ground instead of fitting vacuum brakes and using them like 28XXs.

 

It may just have been a case of bad timing and lack of funds, and of course a decision about how much work there was for 8F-grade locos, with the 1926/7 decision to revamp some and 'let the others go'. Had the situation arisen five of so years later, when funds for 'rebuilds' (as opposed to funds for 'new' engines) became available, as a result of some arcane accounting practices tied up with government funding, then the situation may have been different.