GWR tenders

[drduncan]

Dear all,

 

Can anyone help identity the type of tender attached to 2811? 

 

 

(In case anyone is interested the picture is from J H Russell's 2nd volume on GWR locos....)

 

The tender appears to be the same type as you can find behind the Bachmann 4mm model of the GWR City class, but unfortuantley they are refusing to supply one as a spare.  So having identified it, can anyone tell me if a 4mm version is made, and by whom?

 

So far I have ruled out the 3000 gallon Dean tender used in the Mianline/Dapol/Hornby Dean Goods, and the Dean 300 gallon version supplied by W & T models as these have a small scalloped edge to the front of the tender flare, something which is not present on 2811's tender.

 

Also,does anyone have a good GA drawing of the tender in question?

 

So over to you guys for any help and advice you can give.

 

Many thanks

 

drduncan

[HowardGWR]

Unless you state at what date you are interested in, I can't see how it matters what tender this had when photo'd.  There are records of tender allocations that will provide the info.  This looks to be an ex-works photo of a new engine (badged logo).  Is that what you wanted to model?

[Miss Prism]

The photo was taken in 1905. Although the early 28s were paired with 3000g tenders (still comparatively new at that time) in traffic, it is possible the one in that ex-works picture is a 2500g, which would account for the scallop at the front of the flare. Some of the early 3000g tenders might also have displayed the scallop, and it depends to an extent on the style of the tender front handrail ('inline' or 'outrigger'), since the front width of the tender baseplate will match that of the loco footplate width. If the tender has a vacuum tank, it will be longitudinal, and the springs are probably of the earlier Dean light pattern.

Martin Finney does 2500g and 3000g tenders.
 
2811 in 1905 is different from the Hornby offering in many details. Buffalo's blog is a good starting point.
 

[buffalo]

Russell's caption to the photo of 2811 is almost certainly correct. It probably dates to September 1910 after fitting a long cone (D4) boiler with extended smokebox and larger chimney. His mention of the "small tender" also makes sense as before 1911 most of the class had been fitted with 3000 gallon tenders. Only from 1911 were new builds equipped with the 3500 type that was to become fairly standard across the class.

 

I don't know the Bachmann City tender, but the Martin Finney Dean 3000 would be the closest if built in its final form.

 

Nick

 

ps re Miss P's comments, I don't see any scallop at the front of the flare in the Russell photo, but it does have the 'outrigger' handrail. There's no sign of a vacuum tank, but the angle may just be enough to hide it. The springs do look like the lighter type.

[Miss Prism]

Thanks for correcting the date of the prototype ex-works photo, Nick. I'd forgotten about the original short-cone boilers!

[buffalo]

... If the tender has a vacuum tank, it will be longitudinal...

 

That's certainly the case with the 1911 tenders, but a photo of 2803 as built in works grey in 1905 with short smokebox and short cone boiler shows a transverse tank. Unlike those of the later Collett tenders on the 2884s, this is immediately behind the front wheels and is shorter so it fits inside the brakes. See p4 of Colin Veal and Rev John Goodman, Heavy Freight: 28XX and 38XX Consolidations of the Great Western, GWS, 1980.

...There's no sign of a vacuum tank, but the angle may just be enough to hide it...

It probably does have a cylinder as described above. Photo J20 in RCTS Part 9 is a side view of 2811 probably taken at the same time as the Russell photo (Sept 1910). This shows the same type of transverse tank which would certainly be hidden by the front wheel in the Russell photo.

 

Nick

[Miss Prism]

Ah, thanks Nick. So the general progression on vacuum tank style seems to be something like: transverse early style; longitudinal; transverse later style.
 
Here's 3267 out of the shops c 1924, with seemingly no vacuum tank on the tender. (3000g, outrigger handrails, scalloped front end on the flare, light springs with Dean 'narrow W-irons', combined filler and dome.)
 

[drduncan]

Thanks.  After a chat with Martin Finney, I've bought one of his 300 gallon tenders as it can be constructed with or without the reverse curve in the leading edge of the fender.

 

drduncan

[Craigw]

drduncan,

 

One other thing to be aware of with GWR tenders is the springs. From the mid 1920's the GWR started to fit heavier springs to 3500, 3000 and 2500 gallon loco tenders - easily identified by having a straight top rather than the curve on the older types. These springs were introduced around 1924/1925 and gradually fitted and were commonplace by the 1930s.  The Bachmann City has these springs fitted and it sticks out (to me) like the dogs proverbials. If you are modelling 1920s or earlier you need the original types of springs on the tender.

 

Regards,

 

Craigw

[drduncan]

Thanks for the tip.

D