Limitations with Double Heading and a Duchess

[Pannier Tank]

What were the issues with Double Heading with a Duchess? I understand that the Duchess had to be "inside" i.e it was not allowed to be the leading loco. I have seen pictures of the Duchess leading hence my reasons for asking.

 

[LMS2968]

There were three basic rules:

 

1 Two pacifics could not be run double headed

2 When double heading, the pacific had to be coupled to the train

3 only certain types were allowed to assist a pacific, and they all had bogies, i.e. 4-4-0, 4-6-0 and 2-6-4T.

I have though seen photos of a double headed train with the pacific leading.

[GordonC]

In the examples where they were double-headed with the pacific leading were both locos working? was the inner engine a failure perhaps and the pacific happened to be nearby to rescue?

[John_Miles]

I somewhere have a photo of a Midland 3F double heading a Duchess - possibly due to a failure but nevertheless interesting.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Was the issue forward lookout? Between the size of the machine and the potentially voluminous exhaust beating down, an inside loco crew behind the pacific would have had significantly reduced sighting of signals and the line ahead.

[LMS2968]

From memory, the photo with the pacific leading was exiting Carlisle Citadel with a Black Five behind, so I suspect not a failure; the Five would have been removed if it were.

I've also seen the shot with the 3F 0-6-0 on the front, but in that case, the 3F was to allow the pilotman to get back home without having to wait for another train going that way. The pacific had been diverted over the Midland and Little North Western lines, which its driver wouldn't know. Hence the need for a pilotman; the 3F wasn't there to give assistance. 

[Arthur]

Pacific's couldn

There were three basic rules:

 

1 Two pacifics could not be run double headed

 

 

?? Is that a general 'rule' or do you mean that two Duchess Pacifics were not allowed to double head?

 

There's a photograph in one of the R. Preston Hendry photo albums showing a Britannia (leading) and a red Duchess double heading a parcels train at Rugby. It's noted that it's probably a positioning move for the Brit to save a light engine movement, not that the Duchess needed the assistance. Whatever, it's a magnificent sight.

[LMS2968]

I believe it was for the Stanier pacifics, both classes. I have to admit that I've never seen a shot of a Big 'un and a Britannia together; it's certainly a new one and I don't know if it was or was not outside the rules. It must have been pretty close, though. The biggest combination I've heard of was a Big 'un and a Royal Scot.

Stanier pacifics could be run together for light engine movements, as from Camden to Euston or Polmadie to Central, but they weren't supposed to double head a train.

[Arthur]

Further info. and, having checked the book, some amendments to my earlier posting;

 

The photo is in 'The Steam Age in Colour', Dr. R. Preston Hendry & R. Powell Hendry 1985, plate 71, page 72.

 

The locomotives are 46238 'City of Carlisle' and 70004 'William Shakespeare'. The amendments are that the Duchess is leading and it's a Camden-Carlisle fully fitted freight, on the down fast at Rugby Midland, on the afternoon/early evening of 9th July, 1964.

 

There's no mention of a positioning move and I recollect that I've discussed this photo elsewhere and that idea sprang from that.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Probably this working, I think it's been posted before but I can't remember the thread it was in. https://www.flickr.com/photos/88869872@N06/8617908626/in/set-72157633161183300

[Arthur]

That's it, the very same photo!

[LMS2968]

That is truly amazing! Certainly something I wouldn't have expected.

[The Stationmaster]

That is truly amazing! Certainly something I wouldn't have expected.

Indeed, but there's always 'someone' who doesn't read the book or 'interprets' it to suit what fits on the day.

 

I suspect putting the 'Duchess' inside was to do with the size of the engine and the dynamics - to the extent such a word would then be used - of the way the two engines worked together.  Plus it would hopefully avoid the tendency of the more powerful one to 'pull' along the other although I accept that it could just as easily push it as pull it.

[talisman56]

What a comedown for "Will S", having been previously in its life been rostered for the 'Golden Arrow'...

[LMS2968]

It was a bit of a comedown for the Lizzie, too!

[byron]

Further info. and, having checked the book, some amendments to my earlier posting;

 

The photo is in 'The Steam Age in Colour', Dr. R. Preston Hendry & R. Powell Hendry 1985, plate 71, page 72.

 

The locomotives are 46238 'City of Carlisle' and 70004 'William Shakespeare'. The amendments are that the Duchess is leading and it's a Camden-Carlisle fully fitted freight, on the down fast at Rugby Midland, on the afternoon/early evening of 9th July, 1964.

 

There's no mention of a positioning move and I recollect that I've discussed this photo elsewhere and that idea sprang from that.

Please remember the state the WCML was in in 1964. It was a year or so before my "elevation" (?????) into Stoke Control, but power shortages were endemic. If it had wheels, and was capable of getting a train onto someone elses patch, then use it.

 

Mike

[roythebus]

The rule about pilot engines being outside the train engine is probably that it's easier to hook a pilot/banking engine on the front than between the train engine and the train, simples.