The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[Guest]

The only people who have created this situation...

 

WHAT situation??? Sorry, I just don't get it...

[47137]

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

 

Given that there is only one seller of the APT-E (Locomotion), it is really quite simple.  At whatever deadline Rapido and Locomotion have setttled on Locomotion will tell Rapido that they need x of each catalog number, at which point Rapido will go off and produce x of each item (plus a small number of extras for warranty issues).

 

If you are trying to imply that Locomotion is going to destroy they reputation they have built up by playing games with order fulfillment, then I suggest you take it up with Locomotion because baseless speculation on this forum is inappropriate.

I was trying to inspire some discussion but tapping it all out on a smartphone became too much and I probably didn't write enough.

 

1. To my mind, the APT-E model is a speculative venture by Rapido Trains. At the beginning of the project they ran a risk of insufficient interest, and having decided to go ahead there was a risk of under-supply or over-supply.

2. Investment by punters before the deadline was a speculative investment. You might have got a train, or your money back, or perhaps even a partial refund or no refund if something went badly wrong.

3. The removal of the deadline makes under-supply seem unlikely.

4. The prior limit of two pre-orders per customer stopped unscrupulous dealers/investors making bulk pre-orders and not fulfilling them, leaving a huge oversupply - good. But, the new limit of four per customer seems to be tailored exactly to small, if not unofficial, dealers.

5. In the event of over supply, the dealers may end up selling off the surplus stock at a discount. So this makes a new risk to the original punters (my item 2) - they may find themselves having paid over the odds by paying early.

 

None of this says anything bad about Rapido trains, but I do think Locomotion Models have muddied the waters by changing the rules part way through the game. A simple statement from Locomotion Models would help a lot.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

 

Rapido function in a certain way and that is to determine an absolute production quantity based on pre-orders and carry no inventory. In this case however Rapido are producing for a commissioning client in the form of Locomotion. The orders placed up to the deadline then give Locomotion the necessary information to determine the quantity which will be manufactured. They could choose to have more manufactured to cover any replacements necessary (and I'd support them in actually have a small quantity on a shelf or on the website at release date if it meant suppressing inflated opportunistic resales on ebay at the point of release) or drastically they could choose, if they wished,  to manufacture less if they chose to factor that some buyers who've placed a deposit may not be able to pay the balance.

 

I agree with this, but the Locomotion web site does state, "Limited Edition - produced strictly to order".

The claim on the web site may well be true, but if it includes unlimited extra orders placed by Locomotion themselves, it rings pretty empty to me.

 

On the bright side, it didn't influence my decision to buy at all - I am really looking forward to these models.

 

- Richard.

[Gerzuntite]

TWINS

 

On a lighter note - From APT-E Conservation and Support Group workday at Locomotion yesterday Sat 2nd May 2015

 

APT-E PC2 meets its twin

 

Mistaken identity

Edited May 6, 2015 by Gerzuntite

[jjb1970]

The reason I pre-ordered this model has nothing to do with it being limited or exclusive and everything to do with the fact that of all the trains in the world I'd want a model of the APT-E is at the top of the list. I never expected to see it in model form (although Heljan's forays into one off prototypes and demonstrators gave me hope) and certainly the reputation of Rapido gives me a very high degree of confidence that this may well not only be the only APT-E made but the definitive model in any case. That is the only reason I was happy to pre-order and pay a deposit as ordinarily I do not agree with making payments up front and consider that it is for the producer to manage their business, finance their operations and look after their own cash flow. In return for which I am happy for them to make a healthy profit and if they get rich all well and good. If Locomotion had just caveated the deadline then this would not be an issue with me. Maybe I am just an awkward so and so and cantankerous but I find their flexibility on this to be disingenuous after their marketing spin to play up the deadline and persuade customers to pay a deposit months in advance of receiving the product. I'll leave it at that.

[Budgie]

I'm not bothered by what people are arguing about. As far as I am concerned, I shall be happy when the models I have ordered and part paid for are delivered and running on my layout. Until then, I am waiting patiently. I am not bothered by anything else the other parties in the manufacture of these models may or may not be doing.

[Andy Reichert]

Good point, well made... but this a forum after all where people have their opinions, their rants and their genuine questions about the prototype.  If we did direct all our energies into something else ,this thread would be about 5 pages long instead of 42+ with all its talk of cheese sandwiches , tilt angles and such.  I for one don't give a stuff how many are made , as long as it is made , and to the high standard that we have seen so far.

 

Why are you so rudely implying that others questions about tilt angles are somehow a waste of your precious time and reading energy???

 

My layout has 48" radius curves. Since the model has been (professionally) designed already, clearly Rapido know exactly how much tilt there is and at what radii determines it. And it's also clear it tilts at fairly tight radii for the #2 or so curves mentioned.

 

So why would I even consider buying a cleverly made actually tilting model, if for example it never actually tilts on my normal curves?  Obviously I'd like to find that out first and not be disappointed or worse, upset.

 

Andy

[hymekfan]

Sorry but you have missed my point totally here.  I have read this thread from the start and have enjoyed every single post. What I was trying to say was that a thread like this must include all types of comment , both the positive and the negative to make it balanced. The comment about wasting our energies was not made by me, but was referenced in my post.

[Andy Reichert]

Sorry but you have missed my point totally here.  I have read this thread from the start and have enjoyed every single post. What I was trying to say was that a thread like this must include all types of comment , both the positive and the negative to make it balanced. The comment about wasting our energies was not made by me, but was referenced in my post.

 

My apologies in that case.

 

But I'd still like to know the tilting spec.

Andy

[Gerald Henriksen]

1. To my mind, the APT-E model is a speculative venture by Rapido Trains. At the beginning of the project they ran a risk of insufficient interest, and having decided to go ahead there was a risk of under-supply or over-supply.

 

I don't know Jason(*), but I wouldn't have called the APT-E a speculative venture.

 

What it was, in my opinion, was an extremely well planned method for a well established company to make an entry into the UK prototype market.

 

By making such a unique model, and partnering up with the well established Locomotion Models, Rapido gets to establish itself much faster than if they tried to do it releasing a model using the normal retail channels.

 

As such, and confirmed by the schedule announced on the day the model was announced, the APT-E was always going to be made. Given that the most expensive part of the process is making the moulds, and that they had to be made before the order deadline, Rapido was always making a significant enough investment that to not go through and produce the model would not have made sense.

 

2. Investment by punters before the deadline was a speculative investment. You might have got a train, or your money back, or perhaps even a partial refund or no refund if something went badly wrong.

No.

 

Your deposit (not a "speculative investment") was simply a reservation for a model that was always going to be produced.

 

 

(*) - I have never met Jason, I simply have gotten to know him via the email list he set up more than 10 years ago for people modeling Canadian trains.

[Gerald Henriksen]

I think something needs to be clarified here, because I think some people are confusing some of the new production methods.

 

This is NOT a kickstarter type project where the people buying the model are financing the development and production of the model ahead of time, and require a certain number to be sold to proceed with the model.

 

In a kickstarter style project you would indeed be an "investor".

 

This is a different type, somewhat new to the UK, where the manufacturer is financing the model themselves but they only produce the number of models that are ordered.

 

The old style way of doing things was do produce a number of models that would not only supply the orders made prior to the deadline, but also to produce a certain amount of extra stock to keep in a warehouse so retailers could order extra stock after the model was released if they needed to meet customer demand.

 

Rapido does not produce this extra stock, so if the retailer wants to order more later they are out of luck.

 

So in short, there are 3 basic types of production:

 

1) modeler financed, aka kickstarter or similar.  This is what the DJM Class 71 is produced as.

 

2) produce to pre-order only, but financed by the manufacturer.  This is what Rapido does, and what the APT-E is.

 

3) old style, financed by the manufacturer, production run is pre-orders plus extra inventory.

[rapidobill]

I entirely agree with jjb1970, and yes it did say somewhere that you had until 30th April to order and there would be unlikely to be a further production run, so jib1970 is 100% correct.

 

I ordered two sets last year soon after first announcement and have topped that with coaches since. Not that I ever intend selling any, it is such an iconic piece of railway history that I grew up with so one is for my display cabinet the other for the layout.

 

I travelled especially to York Exhibition to see the preproduction sample and was not disappointed.

 

So who is at fault? I would guess that Locomotion have underwritten say 500/750/1000 sets and have failed to attain that in pre orders. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

 

These pre orders or effective crowd funding rely on trust.

 

 

 

 

.......The trust here has been broken. I am now very very disappointed that their word cannot be adhered to. In fact it is effectively breach of contract. If I didn't want the APT-E model so much I would now commence refund procedures.

 

They will not get any future orders from me and I hope others will note that Locomotion/Rapido cannot be trusted.

"(Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong)."

 

Wow... travel for a few days and LOOK what happens... 

 

You're wrong. ;>)

 

Greetings from Toronto.

 

First of all, Jason and I leave for 2+ weeks in China at 1:00 AM Monday morning (whether that constitutes tonight or tomorrow I will leave up to you!) We're not going to get good take-out, but rather to spend some time with the factory working out the last details on several projects, including the APT-E. If the project were not going ahead. Were it not, I would be home instead with the family who - oddly enough - have expressed an interest in having me hone after just getting back for the UK trip! So, rest assured that the project IS going ahead and ALWAYS HAS BEEN. If would be risiculous to assume that we would spend the money on the R&D and tooling just to make fancy paper-weights from it. 

 

Locomotionmodels.com operate their web site, not Rapido. There was a count-down clock going, but that seems to have been removed. Whether that constitutes an extension or not I don;t know, but my guess is that is an oversight. My suggestion though is that if you still want to order one take advantage of the fact that you can before they find out!

 

How any of this indicates that we cannot be trusted is beyond me, but each will draw his own conclusions....

 

Bill Schneider

Rapido Trains

Edited May 3, 2015 by rapidobill

[roundhouse]

I have seen enough of products produced by Rapido I have complete trust in this project as well as other projects that Rapido are working on.

 

I ordered an APT-E because I want one and not because it would be a limited run, limited time ordering etc as I suspect most others have also done.

 

I must also order an Amtrak F40PH!!!

[rapidobill]

My apologies in that case.

 

But I'd still like to know the tilting spec.

Andy

 

Andy,

 

Sorry for the delay, we've been rather busy and have not had much time to monitor all the forums over the last couple of days (see my previous post).

 

Regarding the tilt angle, the model is designed to tilt from a rest state at vertical to a maximum of 9 degrees (Mr. Tilt would have it no other way!) at rough;y 18" radius. The tilt is progressive. I do not have a chart to determine the exact degree of tilt at each radii, but during test runs on the Shildon Club's layout during the Stirling Single launch the tilt was apparent and commented on by those who saw it. Sorry that I can't be more precise at the moment. 

 

Bill

Edited May 3, 2015 by rapidobill

[rapidobill]

An important note/request:

 

Jason and I will both be travelling for the next two weeks on quite a busy schedule. In addition, we will be twelve hours out of our normal timezone and with sketchy internet access.... all of which means that we may not be reading or posting on this forum regularly. If you have specific questions on the project, deadlines or progress on the model please e-mail us directly http://www.rapidotrains.com/contact.html for an honest answer before starting speculatiion on line what our evil intentions might be.....   

Bill Schneider

Rapido Trains

Edited May 3, 2015 by rapidobill

[piranha230]

Simple solution to this, if you feel you have been cheated or misled cancel your order with Locomotion and see if they will refund your deposit or full payment, then you wont get your apt-e.

I am happy that I have 2 ordered before the deadline, if the deadline has been extended or whatever has happened I would gladly buy more.

It makes sense , say only 1000 were ordered after spending all that money on tooling, by allowing the deadline to be extended or carry on indefinitely they will get future sales and orders allowing them to re-coup the tooling costs.

[rapidotrains]

Hi all,

 

I will weigh in with one comment.

 

Rapido's - and Locomotion's - sales target was reached before the deadline.  And no, I'm not telling you what that was! 

 

Speculation over.

 

I can't speak for Locomotion, but for our own products we always accept late orders that come in a day or two after the deadline.  Often people forget and only realize a day or two later that they meant to order and got distracted, were out of town, internet wasn't working, etc.  We aren't computers.  We're people.  And that means we're flexible. 

 

Heck, if someone came to me a week after the deadline and said "I forgot to order and I want 200 of them" I will gladly tell the factory to order more materials and make the models for that guy.  I'm not going to turn away a large order because the deadline that I made up has passed.... :-)

 

If it's a month after the deadline, then generally we can't even fill a 200-strong order.  Because all of the materials for production have been delivered to the factory and we'd need a 1000-strong new order to make more.  That doesn't usually happen.... 

 

Regarding the APT-E, I recommended to Locomotion that they allow a couple of days' grace period, but I never heard back as to whether they were going to or not.  I guess they decided to follow my advice.

 

Best regards,

 

Jason

[Mr_Tilt]

 

 

Regarding the tilt angle, the model is designed to tilt from a rest state at vertical to a maximum of 9 degrees (Mr. Tilt would have it no other way!) 

 

I should think so too!!! 

[GreenBR]

Hello,

I would love to be able to type what I think, but good manners will not allow it. I can give you a taste though.

Its a hobby

Its a toy

Need to get a life

Throwing things out of your pram

People starving

Need I say more.

If I am now going to be thrown off the site for such a terrible crime so be it.

 

I think it is fantastic this model is being made why can you not all just be happy with that

Not allowed to say any more

 

Stephen Redfern

[Igor]

I agree with this, but the Locomotion web site does state, "Limited Edition - produced strictly to order".

The claim on the web site may well be true, but if it includes unlimited extra orders placed by Locomotion themselves, it rings pretty empty to me - Richard.

 

Hi all,

I will weigh in with one comment. Rapido's - and Locomotion's - sales target was reached before the deadline. And no, I'm not telling you what that was!

 

Speculation over.

 

I can't speak for Locomotion, but for our own products we always accept late orders that come in a day or two after the deadline. Often people forget and only realize a day or two later that they meant to order and got distracted, were out of town, internet wasn't working, etc. We aren't computers. We're people. And that means we're flexible.

 

Heck, if someone came to me a week after the deadline and said "I forgot to order and I want 200 of them" I will gladly tell the factory to order more materials and make the models for that guy. I'm not going to turn away a large order because the deadline that I made up

 

Regarding the APT-E, I recommended to Locomotion that they allow a couple of days' grace period, but I never heard back as to whether they were going to or not. I guess they decided to follow my advice.

Jason

Hi Stephen. I'm try to be good with my manners and won't type what I really think because I am on a yellow card for being a bit negative but accept your points - and we all want a good model. However there are a few of us out here that don't understand this marketing method and want someone from Locomotion to make it clear. I'm a bit surprised this wasn't done straight away by Brian?Sandra?

 

About the deadline and fuss over the countdown clock on the website, there is an expectation of something happening when it gets to zero! An example is lift-off of a rocket, or a better comparison, fresh info on when you can now buy the latest an Apple iPhone or watch. Oh, or the regular Bachmann announcements. Can you imagine the comments if those were followed by silence? I'm only saying not being overly negative.

 

No one was too fussed until a big thing was made about the timer and I was half expecting it to automatically trigger a fancy announcement saying well done - thanks for support - orders now stopped - delivery expected... Yadda yadda. With this being such a major announcement someone must have been around at the time it expired. And I thought someone said the site had been changed after the deadline (2 to 4 max orders or something?)

 

I understand we will not get to know the target quantity from Jason. But we should get to know the number made on the certificate. This might be old ground (please forgive me if it is) but the definition of a limited edition is: noun, an edition of a book, or reproduction of a print or object, limited to a specific number of copies. e.g. "a signed limited edition of 500". All the limited models I have give a quantity made.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Igor

[Colin_McLeod]

My interest in this is to have an excellent model of the APT-E on my layout. I also woud like it to be a success for Rapido as that would increase the chance of them producing another model that I might like. Personally I don't care how many are made or who makes a profit selling theirs on E Bay. Thanks Jason for making this wonderful model and for your refreshing clarification a few posts back.

[jjb1970]

My interest in this is to have an excellent model of the APT-E on my layout. I also woud like it to be a success for Rapido as that would increase the chance of them producing another model that I might like. Personally I don't care how many are made or who makes a profit selling theirs on E Bay. Thanks Jason for making this wonderful model and for your refreshing clarification a few posts back.

I don't disagree with any of this. The disappointment I feel is not towards Rapido, it is towards the retailer.

[doublecee]

This is indeed a strange hobby. When I was a kid, I just enjoyed running trains, and dreaming about future acquisitions. Then I took a 30 year hiatus.

Jumping back into the hobby, I once again found myself innocently enjoying the same aspects I enjoyed as a youth.

 

But then I jumped into the forums, and was surprised by the amount of negativity that would be randomly and undeservedly aimed at certain manufacturers. A certain mentality pervades all the forums, where not only is it ok to have an opinion, but its also acceptable to publically and shamelessly share those opinions, regardless of how little of their content is based on fact. And once you get one angry little trainspotter come out of the woodwork, a few more join the rabble. Its probably the same lot who like to bash Hornby and Bachmann with little regard for the actual facts, and their posts are peppered with little to no understanding as to the inner machinations of actual production.

 

Having been on both sides of the fence, I have decided that the only way to enjoy the hobby is to not worry about the running of the businesses, and only concern myself with the running of the trains. The minute I start to read overly opinionated posts that veer towards the negative, I just remind myself that that life is too short and the world is too full of REAL problems that matter. And its the said running and collecting of these models that actually distracts from real world issues that there is no real escape from.

 

My dealings with Rapido & Locomotion have been stellar, and you will not find a more dedicated and passionate partnership. They clearly have one goal, and thats to bring highly desirable models to market, and 2014-15 has seen this partnership announce some cracking releases.

 

As best I understand the most recent pages to this thread, Locomotions website countdown for orders has expired, but the pages are still up and taking orders.

 

So, whats the problem with that? Its down to one of two things... Their I.T chap has not revised the site (an oversight), or orders can still be taken. 

Either situation could be clarified by polite enquiry alone. Thats all it takes. And if it is the latter, then who cares.... really? I may just order a few more and hold a couple back and see if there is demand for them after the run has finished. Not as a profit making exercise, I hasten to add. 

 

A quick call, a polite question asked, and the answer shared here. 

 

But certain users seem to just want to sh*t their pants over the smallest of matters and blow something up to the point where it actually sours an otherwise really enjoyable thread. 

 

GET        A         GRIP       GUYS 

 

 

PS: has anyone actually considered that the countdown clock was nothing more than a visual reminder for anyone visiting the site that the time to place orders was limited. The lack of whizz bang boom when the clock reached zero pretty much confirms this. 

 

This thread should be about the APT, its exceptional design, sandwiches holding open doors, interior detail and tilts on curves. Anything else should really be in a new thread, so as to not corrupt the enjoyable nature of this one. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by doublecee

[Steve Purves]

I for one would like an extended deadline or shop stock as I haven't had the money in the right place at the right time and would actually really like one.

[Anthony566]

So this is the wording on the locomotion site .

 

THE APT-E is an iconic four-car train set which achieved the British railway speed record in 1975 and was the beginning of British Rail's quest for faster trains. In May 2013 the APT-E won the prestigious Engineering Heritage Award.

You can own your very own piece of history in this fantastic, museum quality, OO gauge model.

The OO gauge APT-E is being produced strictly to order.

 

And the wording on the Rapido site.

 

Models are available exclusively through locomotionmodels.com and are produced strictly to order. You must reserve your model to ensure delivery!

 

And when i placed my order this is what you are told you are buying :-

 

Two Power Cars each with a 5-pole, skew-wound motor

Two Trailer Cars with articulated Swinging Arm Trailer Bogies

3D Scanned exterior for accurate body contours

Operating tilt mechanism and close coupling system

Full interior detail including illuminated test instrumentation

Working headlamps, tail lamps and interior lighting

Factory fitted with ESU DCC Sound decoder

Accurate sounds recorded from archival footage

Smooth running mechanism with dual motors and flywheels

Designed for drop-in conversion to P4 and EM wheelsets

Includes lavishly illustrated commemorative book

Limited Edition - produced strictly to order

 

 

I see nothing about the number being produced, ltd edition certificates etc so can people please stop making stuff up that doesn't exsist.

 

Now on my planet if we have a question about something we are buying we contact the supplier and ask it directly rather than leave a note somewhere they might or might not see.....

 

Just putting that wild sugestion out there.

 

Now for me I am extremely please that Rapido and Locomotion have took the plunge to build this otherwise unobtainable loco as a working OO model and despite the doom and gloom that always seems to creep out would like to THANK them both.

 

Roll on arrival day