British Modular System - the initial ideas and debates

[cromptonnut]

Insurance for what? As I understand it meetings will not be shows or exhibitions open to the general public but meetings of individuals, much like an unincorporated club or association (which is not a legal entity). 

 

Accidental damage I guess.  I don't know whether some venues may require the hirers to have some sort of insurance for the venue.

 

I suppose the concern is that, should anything go wrong, the organiser of the event (which could be me) could be held personally liable.

[ZiderHead]

You can't insure the venue - its not yours! Any more than I could insure your car

[Glorious NSE]

Most venues will ask for you to be insured in their T&C in my experience, though I've never had one ask for proof yet! If it's a small local group of "known" folk you might not want to bother, to my mind if you have folk there from further afield then it gives some piece of mind.

 

It does give a little piece of mind though, for instance should you accidentally burn their hall down, should somebody there cause somebody an injury...or whatever.

£53 sounds a big outgoing, but if it's spread between (say) 30 people it's less than £2 each...

[Andy Reichert]

Hi Felix

 

We adopt the Fremo standard, and upset the British Freemo lads, many who not only model US railroads but British railways as well, hence their interest on this topic.

 

We adopt 4 feet 5.6 inches as our floor to rail height, I will need two sets of legs because I find layouts over 4 feet high uncomfortable to work on. As I have stated before should any UKFremo modellers wish to join in then either adjustable legs or a second pair of legs. This is not hard I have two layouts the big one is a tad under 4 ft and the little one at table height (so I can operate it sitting in a normal chair). Both layouts are the same width and the legs are interchangeable should I want the little one higher for some reason.

 

Track centres of 46 mm is fine, the British minimum is 44.68mm and most lines are not built to the minimum but slightly wider. The problem is the most widely used track in Britain is Peco with a track centre of 50mm. Now do we tell the Peco track users to put a joggle in their track to bring it down to 46 mm at the board edge or tell them to remove 15mm of the crossover rails to bring the track centres closer? The first one will not look very good as it will show up as the trains wobble about on the joggle. The second one will have many modellers throwing their arms in the air at the thought of cutting up Peco points. Especially as the point rail will be left with only two fixings to hold it in place by the time it has been cut back and some fixings removed so that the insulated rail joiners can be put on the ends.

 

It is not reinventing the wheel but making sure we have the right size wheel for the job.

 

Surely two peco points laid as a crossover creates a reverse curve?

 

Andy

[Glorious NSE]

You're not insuring their venue, you're insuring your liability.

[trisonic]

By the way, I apologize for a couple of my uninformed comments very early today - I had not seen the list that AndyY has produced.

 

Thanks, Pete.

 

PS I was not put under duress to write the above. It’s just that sometimes confession is good for the soul.

Edited July 24, 2014 by trisonic

[cromptonnut]

£53 sounds a big outgoing, but if it's spread between (say) 30 people it's less than £2 each...

 

At an organised exhibition, of course insurance is the problem of the exhibition organisers.  But I'm guessing that for the first few meets in any area you may get less than 6 people turning up.  £10 towards hall hire, £10 towards insurance and a fiver towards refreshments makes it a rather expensive day out on top of fuel costs.

 

I don't know how Fre(e)mo(o) do it but I notice that there are "membership costs" - presumably that goes towards things like insurance?

[The Stationmaster]

Bit of a blind alley littered with pink fish this insurance discussion.  Ask Cap'n Kernow what he does for the SWAG weekend at Taunton - he arranges insurance, which covers all sorts of things.  That, in effect, is no different from insuring a modular event.  Ooops I forgot - as far as some of us are concerned it is insurance for a modular event  

[Glorious NSE]

We don't have membership fees for our freemo. Some clubs (effectively) that use our standard may for their own regular costs however.

 

Like I say, if it's a local thing with a small number of "known" folk who you trust to not do something totally stupid and/or start randomly suing each other, then personally I'd be inclined to skip it.

 

For something slightly larger, with folk you don't know so well, that would start making me slightly antsy.

 

It's a reply with a YMMV - and all that though...

[Talltim]

The recent Freemo event, in a village hall, cost us each £16 for 2 days for circa 30 people. This included hall hire, insurance, bacon butties and a sandwich lunch, but no beer

Obviously there are the costs of getting there and staying overnight, if you do, but £8 a day doesn't seem much to me. I only went on one of the days (paying the £16) , but certainly had £32 of enjoyment, which is what it cost me in total.

[Kenton]

 

A quick and dirty "instant quote" from a specialist model exhibition insurance cover came up as £53.

Doesn't this vary from venue to venue and exactly what we want covered. Act of God and the hall roof collapsing on all participants and layouts vs Hand of God and Fred driving my favourite kit built loco off a 1300mm cliff because he didn't see the stop signal (the controller forgot to change as he was discussing the merits of his bacon buttie with the guy who insisted that it was not cooked to the Fre(e)mo standard). I'm not sure £53 is a lot to pay when it gets spread over quite a well attended meeting - bur when there only 2 people in attendance ...

 

 

You can't insure the venue - its not yours! Any more than I could insure your car

You can insure my car ! In fact anyone other than those named on my insurance policy has to have insurance to drive it (or trade plates and trade insurance) also if my car was for hire you would have to provide insurance. I could even insure your life. Insurance is just a gamble on something happening - you could take out odds with Ladbrooks or ask some reputable insurance company to take your stake against a given risk. Just like Ladbrooks they make a fortune on the bet being in their favour. (not many low/non-profitable insurance companies around) Edited July 24, 2014 by Kenton

[cromptonnut]

I can understand that Talltim but generally most costs except things like food don't go down based on the numbers attending so what do you do if there's only 10 of you, does that then become £50 per person for two days?

 

Certainly those sort of costs would put me off going to something and I bet I wouldn't be the only one.

 

Ok it may be that in the summer we have a member with a large garden who's happy to have visitors round but that certainly won't be an option come the winter.

[cromptonnut]

 

Doesn't this vary from venue to venue and exactly what we want covered. Act of God and the hall roof collapsing on all participants and layouts vs Hand of God and Fred driving my favourite kit built loco off a 1300mm cliff because he didn't see the stop signal (the controller forgot to change as he was discussing the merits of his bacon buttie with the guy who insisted that it was not cooked to the Fre(e)mo standard). I'm not sure £53 is a lot to pay when it gets spread over quite a well attended meeting - bur when there only 2 people in attendance ...

 

I tried on the Magnet site and whether I was insuring £100/stock of stock or £10,000 of layout/stock, and whether I had £2m public liability insurance or no PLI, the price still came out at £53.  It went up significantly if I wanted £5m PLI though.

[Talltim]

The simple answer is to attract more people! At a rough count only half the people brought modules, so one way is invite trusted like-minded friends to get the numbers up. Also, unless you are all massively efficient module builders, the fewer of you there are smaller room you will need, which should in theory be cheaper. You could do away with the food and bring a pack-up (although that probably wouldn't be much cheaper than catering quantities from a cash and carry)

Edited July 24, 2014 by Talltim

[Steve-e]

I think preparation and cut off times could solve some of the financial problems mentioned above

 

for example

 

 

if someone decides right were having a meet in September this year, I've booked a hall were all go, just turn up and pay on the day depending on numbers depends how much, may cause problems.

 

 

Where as ....

 

 

OK I've provisionally booked a hall for April 2015 I need to confirm attendance by 1st Feb but I will need definite numbers by 14th January so we can work out the costs and if we want to go ahead with non-refundable payment which gives time to build / save / book hotels / time off work etc,  will work better.

 

 

And the insurance thing I think would be worth it especially if someone ducks under a board smacks his head and the whole lot comes down like Dominoes then at least there is cover in place if someone feels aggrieved that their time and effort has been wasted. It also will instil confidence that we take things seriously.

 

 

Cheers

Steve

Edited July 24, 2014 by Steve-e

[Kenton]

 

(although that probably wouldn't be much cheaper than catering quantities from a cash and carry)

If you think I'm a fussy module builder just wait to you hear what I'm fussy eating. Don't do tea and biscuits, don't do beer and cakes, and don't start to quiz me me on green coloured food or water from the tap. I'll bring my own it's just less hassle for others.

[Andy Y]

Bit of a blind alley littered with pink fish this insurance discussion.  Ask Cap'n Kernow what he does for the SWAG weekend at Taunton - he arranges insurance, which covers all sorts of things.  That, in effect, is no different from insuring a modular event.  Ooops I forgot - as far as some of us are concerned it is insurance for a modular event  

 

I arrange the insurance for Taunton on the basis of a one day event covering public liability (the same as for a more formal exhibition) which also covers layout and stock in transit based on the values given by layout/module owners. The minimum premium (£53) would cover £19,000 worth of modules, stock and ancilliary items for an event providing certain venue criteria are met (locks, construction etc).

[cromptonnut]

Sounds like the price I was getting is the "minimum amount" then regardless (to a degree) of the value of what's there.

 

I guess Steve-e's "option 2" of getting people to commit months in advance is the safest way forward.  Might also give people an incentive to get their fingers out and at least start their modules

[Clive Mortimore]

OK That's Crompton getting the insurance. I 'll bring along a water 'otter, tea, coffee, biscuits, sugar and milk (sorry Kenton did not mean to exclude you). Who's booking the hall? Who will be bringing the bacon and rolls (butties, baps, cobs etc.)? Then there is lunch, what are we going to have, if winter something hot would be preferred. How about a group booking at a nearby hotel?

 

Wait, have we decided what the final module standards are going to be.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[Talltim]

 

If you think I'm a fussy module builder just wait to you hear what I'm fussy eating. Don't do tea and biscuits, don't do beer and cakes, and don't start to quiz me me on green coloured food or water from the tap. I'll bring my own it's just less hassle for others.

Did anyone mention that the sandwiches have to be a certain height from the floor?

[Steve-e]

This one caught my eye when reading the Fremo standards from here http://www.fremo-net.eu/h0_normentwurf.html?&L=6

 

Standard 8.1.5 Page 38

 

8.1.5 Signals and derails

 

Derails and signals need to be observed during operation.

Disregarding a derail carries a fine of  €5 for engineers and €2.50 for conductors.

 

 

Perhaps we could adopt this standard but change it to

 

A.Y 1 .1 UK Signals and Derails

 

Derails and signals need to be observed during operation.

Disregarding a derail carries a fine of A Round of Teas for Drivers and a round of Biscuits for Guards.

 

 

Steve

[Talltim]

This one caught my eye when reading the Fremo standards from here http://www.fremo-net.eu/h0_normentwurf.html?&L=6

 

Standard 8.1.5 Page 38

 

8.1.5 Signals and derails

 

Derails and signals need to be observed during operation.

Disregarding a derail carries a fine of €5 for engineers and €2.50 for conductors.

 

 

Perhaps we could adopt this standard but change it to

 

A.Y 1 .1 UK Signals and Derails

 

Derails and signals need to be observed during operation.

Disregarding a derail carries a fine of A Round of Teas for Drivers and a round of Biscuits for Guards.

 

 

Steve

Catch/trap points surely?

You forgot round of teas/biscuits + special dietary requirements for Kenton (non-green)

[Kenton]

 

Might also give people an incentive to get their fingers out and at least start their modules

Starting is not the problem - I am good at that (especially something new) - it is just committing to finish that is the big problem (put a date on it and it just gets even worse)

 

 

Derails and signals need to be observed during operation.

Disregarding a derail carries a fine ofA Round of Teasfor Drivers and a round of Biscuits for Guards.

 

Hob Knobs Edited July 24, 2014 by Kenton

[Old Gringo]

Old Gringo, you're reading nonsense into my post.  I'm not suggesting for a second that they should be "matching" anything.  Why on EARTH would I want to run HO-scale US trains on a US-outline 3.5mm scale module onto one with a different scale that also depicts the railway practices and infrastructure of a different country?  A brace of (under-scale) HO Southern Pacific GP9s bounding through an OO Bodmin Parkway, hauling sand to Permanante?

 

It's just that, from actual experience, (heaven forfend) we found that the 45" height works well.  Nothing more, and nothing less. 

 

So, it's, "Mmmmm, interesting logic" my ****. 

 

It's as if this thread is seen by a few as some sort of a place where "secret agenda/Johnny Foreigner" take-over bids are being foisted upon unseeing Brits, and the response is to air almost Ukip-sponsored views.

 

Brian

 

Apologies to all those following this thread, but I feel I should put the record straight.

 

Sorry Brian, but I'm afraid that you have also completely missed my feeble attempt to point out the irony of the situation, between the different standards and the different applications (post 786).  In no way was it meant to carry any Machiavellian, or political implications, nor to suggest that you would want to run your 'Niagara' through somebody else's Oldham, Glodwick Road.  Now that would be silly.

 

I, however, read the word 'suggest' in Andy's post 610 to mean exactly that - a suggestion to be discussed rationally by all those parties interested in a British Standard for a British Modular System.

 

Dublo gauge is a British compromise and the closer you can bring that compromise up to eye level - the more you can blur that reality.  You don't need to do this with HO scale, because it's the correct track width for the rolling stock running on it.

 

Following in the 'foot-steps' of Iain Rice, I've built, worked on and exhibited base-boards with the track set at four imperial feet from the floor for over 25 years - and it WORKS for me and many others. 

 

British railwaymen have for over 150 years referred to the space between the rails as 'the four foot' - so to suspend our model track "four feet above the floor" has a nice symmetry.  In fact "four foot from the floor to the four foot" makes a good slogan, pity I didn't think of it earlier!  A British standard for a British system.

 

However, if the consensus of RMwebbers is to use 45", then so be it, it's the British way!

 

Now I've read all Felix's posts over the past few days very carefully and have found them all very informative, especially post 800.  I'd like to personally thank Felix for taking such a lot of time and effort to promote the Fremo brand and the exciting concept of modular modelling.

 

Finally, I don't think there was any need for the implied invective of four asterisks, Brian.  To insert a plain and simple imperial word like 'foot' would have sufficed more than adequately.

 

As Prof. Klyzir signs off, Happy modelling!

 

All the best, John.

[Steve-e]

 

 

Catch/trap points surely?
You forgot round of teas/biscuits + special dietary requirements for Kenton (non-green)

7 minutes and we have failed with the Tea and Biscuits ......

 

 

This must be what the Fremo people mean when they say they have 30 years of experience.

 

I can imagine their AGM in 1984...

 

"ok point 8.1.5 we have tried punishing the derailments with rounds of Tea and Biscuits but young Angela (pronounced An-ge-la  )  has dietary needs so doesn’t gain when others fail"

 

"Ummm we agree, we will need to look into this but how....lets come back next year"

 

 

AGM 1985 .....

 

 

"OK Point 8.1.5 that we discussed last year , Young Angela is now one year older and has now taken to bringing in water from an Alpine spring and wants recompense but we failed to take out insurance for such an event.... perhaps instead of Tea and Biscuits we should fine the operators with hard cash instead so Young Angela can go on Holiday to Switzerland to bottle the water herself...."

 

 

 

I wonder if they did go through 30 pages of discussion to decide  .....

 

 

Steve

 

P.S the events and people mentioned above are purely fictitious I'm not sure if there is an Angela who has dietary needs or is indeed interested in modular railways...

 

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by Steve-e