HeavyDuty Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I have 36 of the new Hornby Railroad range HAAs that I need to complete - these are a stand-alone project for running on the club layout at shows. I'd like to replace the original plastic wheels with larger diameter metal ones and also change the couplings to something less obtrusive and more functional. Dagworth was hugely helpful in pointing me to posts describing his modifications; however, he is using an older Bachmann wheelset which would be difficult to find here, and drawbarring won't work for me. I'm thinking that one of the Hornby replacement wheels would work. They do three different 14.1mm wheels - plain disc, two hole and four hole. The HAA has three hole 12mm wheels now - would any of the others be appropriate? I can easily source these through eBay vendors that will ship stateside. This assumes I can make the larger diameter wheels fit, of course. I'm planning on making the swiveling (bogies? W irons? Not sure what to call these) rigid and also body mounting couplings - probably Kadees with the hoses cut off and a cosmetic instanter on the last wagon. Wheels are my biggest question at this point. Would any of the Hornbys - R8218, R8234 or R8264 - be appropriate? If not, can anyone suggest other wheels that would be a drop-in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hi, For the wheels, you want Hornby R8097 3 hole 12mm wagon wheels. They should fit without any modification. The 14mm wheels are for coaches fitted with BR1 or Commonwealth bogies or of pre-nationalisation design. 14mm wheels mean your wagons will ride too high and they will probably foul the underframe and brake shoes. I can't comment on the rest of your questions, I don't have any HAAs and I don't use Kadees. Hope that helps, Alun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 Alun, thanks - I was under the impression that the 12mm HAA wheels were undersize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 HAA require 14 mm wheels. The real things are 3ft6. Remember they have a brake disc on one wheel per axles, at diagonally opposite corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 HAA require 14 mm wheels. The real things are 3ft6. Remember they have a brake disc on one wheel per axles, at diagonally opposite corners. Would they ever use plain disc wheels instead of three hole? I'm trying to find wheels that are affordable, available here and that are a drop in if possible. Can a brake disc be added to plain wheels? I think I've seen etchings for brake discs for DMUs, but I'm unsure if wagon discs are similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 I also found another modeler's writeup on what he did to his older Hornby HAAs - very useful: http://cradleybridgerailway.blogspot.com/2014/04/on-workbench-today.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 I just looked at the HAA photos on Paul Bartlett's site, and I now see these should have solid wheels, not three hole. I'm going to try 14mm solid wheels and see if they can be fitted. I also found the etched discs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I don't know these wagons, although I too looked at Paul's site. It's hard to tell but the wheels look plain to me. I can recommend Bachmann 14mm coach wheels for 00 (I know you do EM, but I assume for the club layout these are 00) and they can be sourced on this side of the water here: http://www.modelrailwayimports.com/product.php?PID=5894&CID=6&BID=9&TID=0&SID=0&q= There could be suppliers in the US, but I don't know of any. I use Kadees. You can buy NEM pockets separately - I daresay Steve at MRI may have them. I've used them a lot, but lately, for my EM stuff, I've gone to the scale heads, which are less obtrusive. Medium shank seems to work best, #158. For standard knuckles, I use either #5 or #148 (whisker). As long as the wheels are the right diameter, I've found that the coupling will be at the right height when mounted directly under the buffer beam (I pack behind the buffer beam with Evergreen strip and simply glue the coupling to that). If you align the knuckle hinge with the buffer head, you should be about right for wagon spacing - although this does depend on layout curve radius. Here's an example: Note I removed the trip pin. Hope this helps John Edit: Just had a brain f**t. Here's a list of BRMNA suppliers: http://www.brmna.org/prodser.shtml I note that Branch Lines are in Illinois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 I ended up ordering the plain Hornby 14mm ones out of a concern for axle length - Hattons price was the best, even with the added shipping. You are correct, these will be done in 16.5mm for the modular club layout. I'll be dedicating one of my pair of EWS 66s to MGR service, so I can even use non-standard couplings throughout with no downside. I may end up avoiding Kadees entirely! Sadly Bernie at Branch Lines is winding down operations last I heard, unless one of his kids is taking over. Bernie is a member of my club, but I haven't seen him for a year or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hatton's is generally my go to place for RTR. Efficient, good prices and they knock off the VAT. Sorry to hear about Branch Lines winding down. My other go to place for non RTR, Mainly Trains, is winding down too. I'm interested in how you plan to do the non-standard couplings. For block trains that don't need to be remarshalled, you could perhaps go with Tony Wright's hook and bar - a system I use for my passenger trains. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 I'll look for a writeup of Tony Wright's method - I have no need to reinvent the wheel! Thanks for the tip. (Edit) Yes, exactly like that - also see the narrower version I linked to in post 6 above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 He shows how here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/page-21 John Edit: just looked at the link in post 6. Very neat system, something to bear in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 For the wheels, you want Hornby R8097 3 hole 12mm wagon wheels. Just wanted to apologise for the bad advice post #2. I would have put money on 3' 1" wheels and clasp brakes, but I was relying on childhood memories at Water End, York and watching long rakes of them with 47s, 56s and pairs of 20s. I've had chance to look at Paul Bartlett's pictures now. Alun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 No worries, Alun - 12mm three holes are what the models come with, and while I knew they were too small from reading earlier threads I was seriously considering continuing with 12mm for ease of conversion. This morning I remembered an old US outline project of mine from back in the 70s or 80s. I had about 60 ore cars, and both to save money and to allow closer coupling I used hook and loop type drawbars between the cars. Or at least I did until I had an "incident" where most of the string of cars went over the edge of the layout onto the floor like a piece of garden hose. Maybe Kadees aren't such a bad idea after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 The replacement 14.1mm wheels and Colin Craig disc brakes are "on the water"; now it's time to start working out couplings. I've decided to go with Kadees for this entire project. I do not need or want magnetic uncoupling; I'd also like to mount them higher than US HO practice for better appearance. The equipment for this train will be dedicated, so I'm not concerned about interchangeability. I dug out the 66 that will be used and think a Kadee 156 (small head long shank whisker) in reduced space 252 draft gear is likely to be my best choice. I'd like to try mounting these with the knuckle centerline 12mm above the railhead, but need to wait until the HAA wheels are here to be sure that's a practical height for the wagons. I did chop up one HAA bogie to be sure I have enough room for the 252 box, that won't be an issue - it's more a matter of coupler shank length selection. Along with the couplings I'm giving serious thought to replacing the undersized HAA buffers with something more appropriate in size. These ones are used by one modeler, I can't remember where I saw it but I suspect it was a blog post: http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/lanarkshire%20models%20and%20supplies%20website_104.htm Are there other more economical alternatives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I'll be interested to see how you tackle this Ken. The complaint I hear often about Kadees is that they are mounted under the bufferbeam. UK stock fitted with buckeye couplers (thinking Mk 1 coaches), had them in the usual position in the bufferbeam. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 John, that's my biggest issue with Kadees on OO stock - they hang so low that they remind me of an unaltered dog. I'm expecting to notch the HAA bufferbeams to take the draft gear at the desired height. The last wagon will have cosmetic instanters with no Kadee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 As I said before (I think ), Kadees look better without the trip pin. I generally install screw link couplings to the front of locos (that are not tasked with shunting) and brake ends for appearance. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 I agree - the vast majority of my US stock is sans trip pin, too. Although I may wait and see what they look like mounted higher - it may give a decent silhouette of the brake pipe, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 I've taken the sacrificial lamb as far as I can without having the wheels: I'm hoping that Kadee 156s will allow me to trim the front of the 252 draft gear square and mount it behind the bufferbeam with just a slot for the shank, but if I need to I'll notch the bufferbeam more severely and have the 252 mount through it. I've stopped bogie rotation using the method shown by another member (I can't recall who) - it is just two strips of .030 styrene welded to the underframe. I also filed a round shoulder on one bogie to allow for a small amount of equalization. I think I'll destroy a second HAA the same way now so I can test the concept on 18" radius. What's the worst that can happen - me being stuck with a 34 wagon rake instead of 36? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 To me the trip pin doesn't look much like a brake pipe . I usually bend and cut the Markits wire wound ones to shape. You mentioned Lanarkshire Models - I suspect Dave has some very good looking pipes. If it was me, I'd notch the bufferbeam to take the draft gearbox and put the coupling in the middle of the bufferbeam (might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb) - it sounds like you're going in that direction I think. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cradley Bridge Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Hi HeavyDuty, My Blog is the one you mentioned re the couplings for the old Hornby HAA's. Mine were the original design ones and came with metal wheels already (they were originally in weathered EWS livery) Like you, I did a few tests on what couplings would be best - I use both scale 3-links and Kadee's - but ended up with my 'low spec' design as it solved a couple of problems. Firstly I wanted to keep the cost down being the skinflint I am, but more importantly it enabled me to keep my adaption of Hornby's 'steering' axles (I joined them together with a firm but flexible wire) and because of that, the 'wobble' that all theses earlier wagons seemed to suffer from, went away, but more to the point the wheels were kept straight yet still allowed the equalisation you mention. More by luck than anything else it works I think, but it helps that my couplings are also linked to the axles too. Not saying my way will work for everybody, just another option, but does the job for me and is pretty unobtrusive when the wagons are linked together. Be good to see how you get on with the kadees tho. I did use Lanarkshire models buffers to upgrade the HAA's rather undernourished ones and any pipework between the wagons was done using (don't laugh)shaped paperclips - as they will pretty much stay together as a rake. The end wagon was super detailed using 3-link instanters, Shawplan air pipes, lamp brackets and a Springside tail lamp. Hopefully these pics will make sense to you and anybody else wanting to use the same. With a bit of time and effort and some nice weathering, they end up looking great in a long rake. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Dave, thank you! Yes, your blog was one of my major inspirations for this project - I had misplaced the link. I'd very much like to replace buffers - yours look much, much better than stock - but I'm not sure I can procure them or afford it in the short time remaining before the show. I may need to hurry up with an alternate project for the show so i can do the HAAs right, i have a dozen vee tanks for a cement movement I can quickly finish. That way I'd have until the next show in February to complete the HAAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 I'm a moron. I managed to order the wrong wheels, 12mm discs instead of 14mm. I think I'll have to live with my error, returning them to the UK is impractical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eetype3 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Just doing these same mods, and I can add three lines that may be of interest: - 14.1mm plain disc wheels are correct; I've used both Bachmann (the old "non-close-coupling" coach discs) and the Hornby equivalent. Tuning the 'trucks' with a Micromark Truck Tuner reduces friction and improves running no end. - The now-Railroad HAA represents the original, unrebuilt condition (but omits the braces between the sides; not a problem if you run them loaded); rebuilds have a few differences, the most noticeable being no braces and an extra line of rivets along the sides near the top - which secured a stiffener plate, obviating the need for the braces. Originally 20.5" Oleo buffers with 13" heads were fitted (available as a lovely casting from Lanarkshire Modelling Supplies) - however, if you fit Smiths screw couplings (most HAA pics I've found show screw-links but I have also seen Instanters) the buffer heads almost touch on straight track... so even my 27"-rad curves are a no-no. I'm investigating extendible coupling systems, but I may yet resort to simple link-and-loop fabrications within the rake. Luckily, my much-modded Mainline 56 and Bachy 47 already have sprung buffers fitted, but I'll need to retrofit my trusty Lima 47s. - The Super Detail version represents a rebuild, but the buffers (I think) are only correct for the CDA china-clay version. Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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