souwest Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Hi everyone, A question - were rebuilt Patriots ever based at Scottish loco sheds? I know that the original versions had at least three based at Polmadie, and no doubt the rebuilt versions ran into Scotland on trains originating from the north west of England, but were any of the rebuilt versions based north of the Border? Souwest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strathyre Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 No rebuilt ones although they did work north fairly regularly, mainly on the WCML but also on the Waverley route. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 No rebuilt ones although they did work north fairly regularly, mainly on the WCML but also on the Waverley route. Paul ( ... and, relevant to the OP's name, on the ex-G&SWR route between Carlisle and Glasgow!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad McCann Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Technically Kingmoor was a Scottish shed (68A) until 1958 when the boundaries were redrawn. I don't have any allocations from that era to hand but I have a suspicion that the Carlisle Patriots were generally stationed at Upperby at that time. Technically Kingmoor was a Scottish shed (68A) until 1958 when the boundaries were redrawn. I don't have any allocations from that era to hand but I have a suspicion that the Carlisle Patriots were generally stationed at Upperby at that time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad McCann Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Sorry about the double post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
souwest Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Hi, Thank you all for the details of the routes worked. The Waverley route was a little of a surprise, but given Carlisle allocations should not really have been. On the same class, there had been plans I believe to name three Patriots after the Scottish resorts - Rothesay, Dunoon And Wemyss Bay - does anyone know why this did not proceed? They managed to get several Lancashire and Welsh resorts, it would have been some good publicity at the time, and some decent names for modellers! Souwest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 It would be misleading to suggest that rebuilt Patriots were regular visitors to the Waverley Route, as only two examples, 45530 Sir Frank Ree and 45535 Sir Herbert Walker KCB, are known to have worked over the line. The former was photographed at Whitrope on 11 December 1965 working the 8:16am Millerhill to Carlisle New Yard freight - see http://www.railpictorial.com/piwigo/picture.php?/6969/category/9 - and this may have been the only actual sighting of it, although it is possible it worked other freight turns during its year's sojourn at Kingmoor shed in 1965. 45535 was never a Carlisle based loco (not correct - see below), either at Kingmooor or Upperby, but the Waverley Route was very occasionally used by diverted WCML trains and it might have turned up on such an occasion. Two unrebuilt Patriots are also known to have worked through Hawick - 45516 The Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment and the un-named 45542. Again, the most likely explanation is perhaps that they appeared in similar circumstances to what I have suggested for 45535, although 45516 was briefly allocated to Upperby in 1951/2 and might have been on loan to Canal shed, although that is perhaps not very likely as the two sheds were in different Regions at that time. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 45535 was never a Carlisle based loco, either at Kingmooor or Upperby, but the Waverley Route was very occasionally used by diverted WCML trains and it might have turned up on such an occasion. Sorry, Bill, I have to disagree with that. I saw 45535 in Glasgow Central on January 5 1963, carrying a 12A shedplate. The Ian Allan locoshed books show 45535 at Kingmoor as of January 26 1963 and still there on October 5 1963. Since Canal closed in June 1963 and Kingmoor was then responsible for providing power for Waverley trains from the Carlisle end, it could have worked through Hawick as part of its 'normal' duties. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Thanks pH - I was relying on the BRDatabase allocations which show 45535 as having been withdrawn from 8A Edge Hill in late October 1963 but it is clearly in error there. In that case I would agree that the window from June to October 1963 is the most likely time for it to have appeared on the Waverley Route. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I was relying on the BRDatabase allocations A bit OT, but yes, there are problems with that database. There was a discussion on here when it first appeared - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/29726-shed-allocations-site-down/&do=findComment&comment=424568 and the person who set it up joined in. What he has accomplished is very good but, as noted in that discussion, there is a massive amount of data to process, and some of the original printed source material contains errors. I think that many of the problems are problems of omission i.e. relevant data has not been loaded (yet?). In the case of 45535, the transfer to 12A has not been included, so it looks as if it stayed at 8A until withdrawn. It doesn't appear as if the database is currently being updated, so I think caution is needed when using information from it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Realistically the best that can be done is to mention the source of such information (which I should have done above). I don't have a full set of Locoshed books and in any case they only provide a snapshot of allocations, not the full picture (and I believe that work done by the Steam Railway Research Society suggests that they are not 100% correct either, although this perhaps applies more to Western Region allocations). Just a pity that I managed to alight on a case where BRDatabase is in error! Bill PS Going back to Rebuilt Patriots on the Waverley Route, it probably goes without saying that other examples could have sneaked through without being observed - second to last survivor 45531 Sir Frederick Harrison must be a strong contender in this respect - but as the railway scene at Hawick was well observed I don't think it negates my original point that these locos were far from being regulars on the line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 ...but as the railway scene at Hawick was well observed I don't think it negates my original point that these locos were far from being regulars on the line. Well observed, indeed, Bill. We are pretty much uniquely well-served in this regard, which is a source of never ending amazement to me and deserves a debt of gratitude to that hardy band concerned. Cheers fellas, and I hope those of you who still carry the torch will be able to add some new traction that reaches Hawick when the Borders line receives the overdue extension that you Teris are owed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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