Keyser LNWR Coal Loco and Coaches

[LNWR lives on]

Something I have never been able to find is the release date for K's LNWR Coal Tank Engine kit and also the three six wheel coaches that they produced

 

The other thing I cannot quite fathom is why they decided to produce just one LNWR prototype and coaches, does anyone any idea why they released just the one locomotive? Was it a case that they didn't sell as well as other products they made?

 

Cheers

 

David

[roythebus]

I'm sure the Coal Tank was available in 1967; a school chum built one.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Something I have never been able to find is the release date for K's LNWR Coal Tank Engine kit and also the three six wheel coaches that they produced

 

The other thing I cannot quite fathom is why they decided to produce just one LNWR prototype and coaches, does anyone any idea why they released just the one locomotive? Was it a case that they didn't sell as well as other products they made?

 

Cheers

 

David

David,

 

it might have been that GEM had already produced their LNWR loco kits.

 

The Coal Tank has been done by K's, Proscale (etched) and London Road Models (composite). 

 

The six wheel coaches were, quite frankly, awful things and one of the few kits I have given up on when I started modelling the LNWR many years ago. Designed for using Jackson wheels with the "bull nose " ended axles they would probably have needed one Coal Tank per coach to pull them.

 

Jol

[LNWR lives on]

Roy,

 

I seem to have got it as far back as 74 but thought that was too late to be a release date so thank you for that information

 

Jol,

 

GEM's first 00 Loco was I think 64 with several following very quickly. The TT LNWR was a year earlier. So it is very possible because of their success Keyser went for an LNWR loco

 

I totally agree with you regarding the coaches, as you have seen on my workbench the body I have rebuilt which now sits atop the LRM chassis and runs so much better than the 3 remaining on the original cast 'chassis'. They do take some hauling on just a straight piece of track, so I understand why someone rebuilt them onto Hornby chassis.

 

Cheers

 

David

[Boatman]

I worked in Barrie's Modelshop, Collier Row, till 1968 as a Saturday job and by then we were selling all K's kits.  I remember saving  one for its motor as they were the thing to have in slot racing at the time, until suddenly the Yankee cans came out and killed slot racing stone dead!

Now it's all back in a different form and I make my living largely from the revival.  I have a show case full of old electric motors and have five K's.  I never had any trouble with them and still don't.

Mind you, the piece de resistance is my pair of Zenith 7 polers, which are due for a 7mm scale loco or two.

 

Regards,

Boatman

[LNWR lives on]

Zenith, now there is another name I have question marks over. I have not got the dates to hand but Zenith produced motors after WW2, but then I think its around 1953 GEM have it in their catalogue as being able to repair all Zenith motors which don't appear in the catalogue anymore, but Romford have a powered Motor bogie that is possibly the old Zenith unit?

 

Did Zenith go bust and the company/products get divided up?

 

Cheers

 

David

[Boatman]

I think Zenith products were taken on by Romford, but I have a full collection of Romfords and they don't seem to actually replicate the Zenith shape, just its solidity and general quality.  No Romfords had 7 pole motors.  Back in the 60s at the Ilford club, we had a Pannier tank with a Zenith (a 40s one), fitted with 120-1 gears and a lead filled brass flywheel, which would pull every single item of rolling stock the club possessed round the huge EM Totnes track, so that the brake van was being chased a foot away from the front of the loco!.  It would do this all day if necessary, growled like a grizzly bear and NEVER failed us.

 

And finally, from a good chum in Canada I have a Zenith to show off.

 

Boatman

[Poor Old Bruce]

To quote from 'A History of Locomotive Kits Volume 1' (what happened to subsequent volumes?) by Robert Forsythe:

 

"An LNWR Coal Tank arrived for the 1958 Easter Show."

[LNWR lives on]

Bruce that's superb thank you. So Keyser released the loco before GEM started doing LNWR kits, would explain why GEM never did a Coal tank as he tried not replicate anything on the market already. Changes the question to why Keyser did not do further LNWR kits. I will have to hunt out the book you mention

 

So Zenith went to Romford, and somehow GEM managed to source spares to repair the Zenith motors though it seems it was not a service they offered for very long.

[D51]

1958 would seem to be right for the K's tank. I think it was their third loco kit.

 

Zenith were a manufacturer of quality small electric motors, particularly during WWII when they made military products. After the war demand for motors decreased but Zenith made some excellent model railway motors, a motor bogie and other model products.

 

When Rovex started making their trains the motor they used was made for them by Zenith but down to a price. Shortly after they were taken over by Rovex (about 1951) and their designer continued to work for Tri-ang.

 

The original Rovex motor, made by Zenith, was then sold to the model trade both as the Zenith X3 and the Tri-ang Super 12.  For several years this was then sold as the Gem X3.  Gem seems to have acquired some assets of the Zenith company as it continued with the X3 and also the Zenith lever frames. Not only that but it produced a new product, the Gem X5 motor, a five-pole version of the X3 with a drum commutator instead of the disc type on the X3. Unfortunately they continued with the poor quality bearings from the X3.

 

Romford motors were also of high quality but separate from Zenith. The Romford and Zenith motor bogies were both available at one stage.

The Romford Series IV motor was a seven pole design with the worm and gear in an enclosed gearbox with oil bath. The Romford Series V motor was seven pole with a flywheel, and the small 'Terrier' TT-gauge motor also had seven poles.

[5050]

Some early motors, including Zenith and K's, here -

 

January 1950 MRN

 

December 1952 MRN

 

March 1952 MRN

 

January 1953 MRN

 

March 1954 MRN

 

I thought I had some ads for the early disc commutator Zenith and the Gem version as well but I'll have another look at the mags in the club library for them.

 

 

[LNWR lives on]

D51, you have touched on a couple of things there:

 

Firstly I was wondering where the GEM X3 came from, we suspected the chassis was bought in as was the motor and wheels and put together for a sold unit but where the motor came from we did not know.

So from the X3 GEM produced the X5 with some of the X3 faults but it gave George a more powerful motor to put into the same chassis', a trick he long employed throughout the company's timeframe.

 

The Zenith frame we suspected was taken over by GEM and continued to be a pressed unit until remodelled as a white metal casting to make it easier to produce although a lot heavier as well

 

5050, The motor adverts are superb thank you. I have some GEM catalogue's with the X3 and X5 mechanism in them but the scanner has been packed for moving so I cant put it online. Has anybody got a GEM X3 or X5 mechanism still running they could post a picture of I wonder?

[Hayfield2]

David,

 

it might have been that GEM had already produced their LNWR loco kits.

 

The Coal Tank has been done by K's, Proscale (etched) and London Road Models (composite). 

 

The six wheel coaches were, quite frankly, awful things and one of the few kits I have given up on when I started modelling the LNWR many years ago. Designed for using Jackson wheels with the "bull nose " ended axles they would probably have needed one Coal Tank per coach to pull them.

 

Jol

 

Jol

 

You are quite right that if you built the Keyser coaches (LNWR 6 wheeled, GWR 6&4 wheeled and SR4 wheeled) they were very hard to pull. Initially I experimented by putting some pin point bearings into the axle holes, this improved things greatly in running ability but they would only sit on 3 wheels as the 2 sides did not match up.

 

What I have done since with some wagons is to fit etched W irons, problem solved, I also did this with a rake of 3 SR 1st class coaches. Ran like a dream

 

What I have not done yet is to convert one of the 6 wheel coaches, I have had for some time some Comet 6 wheel coach W iron etches, which includes an inside bearing etched mount so you can fit a set of wheels with axles cut flush to the wheel. Comet part number C7  http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/11/404

 

The plan is to fit a floor,cut away the 4 W irons/axle boxes at the ends. Fit the Comet W irons at each end and reuse if possible the springs and axle boxes to the etches, then fit the centre wheel in the inside bearing etch. This works with 4 wheel coaches and wagons, so should work with the Comet 6 wheel etching set

 

Now weather you consider the K's offering up to that amount of work is a different argument, for the collector it does produce a usable set

[Boatman]

Thanks for the info and photos.  I knew Zenith had gone somewhere and had completely forgotten the Rovex connection.

 

I have two Terriers, mint and boxed, never used.  I also have a Zenith-ISH motor which is very similar, stylistically, but not actually a Zenith. Bit of a mystery, in a box with a 50s date on it.

I have all the Romfords in the photos, except the gearbox one. I would love one of those and one of the early K's. I have many open framed unused motors I could be interested in swapping?

 

Regards,

Boatman

[Hayfield2]

Thanks for the info and photos.  I knew Zenith had gone somewhere and had completely forgotten the Rovex connection.

 

I have two Terriers, mint and boxed, never used.  I also have a Zenith-ISH motor which is very similar, stylistically, but not actually a Zenith. Bit of a mystery, in a box with a 50s date on it.

I have all the Romfords in the photos, except the gearbox one. I would love one of those and one of the early K's. I have many open framed unused motors I could be interested in swapping?

 

Regards,

Boatman

 

 

Boatman

 

Which opened frame motor do you want as I think there were 2 types, the small (mk1?) 3 pole one (body length 28 mm) and the larger (mk2?) 5 pole one (body length 37 mm)

 

I do have a spare one of each and and open to a swap with a collector, as others have helped me in the past

 

 

Edit the small motor is also 5 pole

[D51]

Here is a photo of the GEM X5 motor alongside a Tri-ang X04. The X04 has a slightly longer armature than the X3 or X5, but its parentage is obvious.

 

The X5 here has been fitted with a Romford axle. The X3 and X5 were originally supplied from Zenith and GEM with a Reidpath axle.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol

 

You are quite right that if you built the Keyser coaches (LNWR 6 wheeled, GWR 6&4 wheeled and SR4 wheeled) they were very hard to pull. Initially I experimented by putting some pin point bearings into the axle holes, this improved things greatly in running ability but they would only sit on 3 wheels as the 2 sides did not match up.

 

What I have done since with some wagons is to fit etched W irons, problem solved, I also did this with a rake of 3 SR 1st class coaches. Ran like a dream

 

What I have not done yet is to convert one of the 6 wheel coaches, I have had for some time some Comet 6 wheel coach W iron etches, which includes an inside bearing etched mount so you can fit a set of wheels with axles cut flush to the wheel. Comet part number C7  http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/11/404

 

The plan is to fit a floor,cut away the 4 W irons/axle boxes at the ends. Fit the Comet W irons at each end and reuse if possible the springs and axle boxes to the etches, then fit the centre wheel in the inside bearing etch. This works with 4 wheel coaches and wagons, so should work with the Comet 6 wheel etching set

 

Now weather you consider the K's offering up to that amount of work is a different argument, for the collector it does produce a usable set

John,

 

I don't build white metal kits if something better - which usually means etched or moulded plastic - exists. I don't know what LNWR Diagrams the K's six wheelers would represent, but the M&L etched kits (now available from David Geen) and the more recent London Road Models offerings provide better models and incorporate decent running gear. I also find it easier to line out etched sides, I think it has to do with the sharp edge of the beading which suits my technique better than the "soft" edges of the beading on w/m castings.

 

I know that collectors of vintage kits/models may take a different view,

 

Jol

[Hayfield2]

John,

 

I don't build white metal kits if something better - which usually means etched or moulded plastic - exists. I don't know what LNWR Diagrams the K's six wheelers would represent, but the M&L etched kits (now available from David Geen) and the more recent London Road Models offerings provide better models and incorporate decent running gear. I also find it easier to line out etched sides, I think it has to do with the sharp edge of the beading which suits my technique better than the "soft" edges of the beading on w/m castings.

 

I know that collectors of vintage kits/models may take a different view,

 

Jol

 

 

Jol

 

You are spot on with the description of what's better as far as scale goes. But there are a few who just like to own older kitbuilt stock we admired as youngsters. I guess its the same as those prepared to pay £s for Wrenn locos

[coachmann]

I attempted without success to build a K's LNWR coal Tank in 1962. It had lost-wax brass driving wheels and trailing wheel with plastic centre insulating bushes in those early days. As far as I can remember, K's did a GWR 14XX first. It's success lead to a GWR Dean Goods then the Coal Tank.

 

Cast metal coaches were IMO a disaster in most cases. The K's have been mentioned but NuCast did Sentinel and Anbrico did a GWR panelled auto coach.....I painted the display models of both and they lacked the crispness and perfection of etched brass.

 

George Mellor did the LNWR 4' 6" 2-4-2T but I couldn't twist his arm to doing the longer lasting 5' 6" version. Neither would he hear of doing a Belpaire boiler for his LNWR 4-4-0's and 4-6-0s. but I helped sales a bit by doing articles for the model press on conversions. When Roy Dock bought GEM, several locos got to the pattern stage and no further. One was a 4mm scale North London Beyer-Peacock 4-4-0T. I even painted and photographed one for the box lids but it was never marketed.

[Boatman]

Boatman

 

Which opened frame motor do you want as I think there were 2 types, the small (mk1?) 3 pole one (body length 28 mm) and the larger (mk2?) 5 pole one (body length 37 mm)

 

I do have a spare one of each and and open to a swap with a collector, as others have helped me in the past

Hayfield, are you referring to the K's motors?  If so I would love one of those in the advert above.  I have a Mk.1 which is the larger one and a Mk 2, which is going in a vintage-style slot car Mini, but I would always be open to more K's.  They also did various versions later, principally for slot racing chassis of which I have a few.

 

As to a swap, I have a good many KTM, Atlas, etc. open frames which are completely unused.

 

Perhaps we should swap notes by PM?

 

Regards,

Boatman

[LNWR lives on]

D51, that is brilliant thank you

 

Coachman,

 

Did George say why he did not want to do the 5' 6" tank or the Belpaire boiler version? Many of the 4-4-0 and 4-6-0's were converted to this style

 

Its a shame that the 4-4-0 North London Tank did not make it to production as it would have complimented the 0-6-0 Goods tank already produced. Can you remember what the other prototypes were that did not make it to the market?

[coachmann]

D51, that is brilliant thank you

 

Coachman,

 

Did George say why he did not want to do the 5' 6" tank or the Belpaire boiler version? Many of the 4-4-0 and 4-6-0's were converted to this style

 

Its a shame that the 4-4-0 North London Tank did not make it to production as it would have complimented the 0-6-0 Goods tank already produced. Can you remember what the other prototypes were that did not make it to the market?

The LNWR was to George what Man United is to a lifetime fan and so he wouldn't hear of LMS Belpaire boilers. When I painted his LNWR 'Precedent' display model in LMS crimson lake, he changed colour and promptly gave me another kit to complete in true LNW livery! The 4' 6" 2-4-2T may have come about through initially using Triang chassis (Nellie?), though later on his kits got GEM chassis. Some N gauge locos never saw mass production............ I produced a mock up of a Caprotti Black Five for one. The only stumbling block with the NLR 4-4-0T was the connecting rod and i dont know why it prevented the loco going into production. He invented 'Pound-Stretchers' so I quipped he could have called then 'Quick-Quids'. It is amusing now to see the latter on our screens in connection with high interest loans!

 

On one occasion I went round to George's home to view some scratchbuilt locos built by a friend of is that had passed away. I bought a few to do up and sell, and some had those large early postwar motors as illustrated in post #11 on here. I recall a highland 'River' 4-6-0 being virtually all motor!

[LNWR lives on]

The LNWR was to George what Man United is to a lifetime fan and so he wouldn't hear of LMS Belpaire boilers. When I painted his LNWR 'Precedent' display model in LMS crimson lake, he changed colour and promptly gave me another kit to complete in true LNW livery! The 4' 6" 2-4-2T may have come about through initially using Triang chassis (Nellie?), though later on his kits got GEM chassis. Some N gauge locos never saw mass production............ I produced a mock up of a Caprotti Black Five for one. The only stumbling block with the NLR 4-4-0T was the connecting rod and i dont know why it prevented the loco going into production. He invented 'Pound-Stretchers' so I quipped he could have called then 'Quick-Quids'. It is amusing now to see the latter on our screens in connection with high interest loans!

 

On one occasion I went round to George's home to view some scratchbuilt locos built by a friend of is that had passed away. I bought a few to do up and sell, and some had those large early postwar motors as illustrated in post #11 on here. I recall a highland 'River' 4-6-0 being virtually all motor!

 

Thank you. I was wondering if it was because it would have taken too much effort/cost too much to alter/produce new masters but it just basically boils down to he was an LNWR man and if people want the LMS variants they can alter it themselves. That would make sense with regards to the 2-4-2 tank as he liked to utilise RTR chassis where possible, I believe the 0-8-0 G1/2 was the only George loco that was a GEM chassis from the start? Someone has a pound stretcher pigeon baskets on ebay currently, after £5.99 minimum I believe

 

Does an n gauge Stainer 8F 2-8-0 or a 7F ring any bells as to locos that failed to make it to production?

[coachmann]

I used the N gauge 8F boiler to make the Caprotti Black Five mock up, but I didn't know the 2-8-0 never went into full production. The G2 did indeed have its own chassis and the model was made possible because of Stephen Poole's new wheels. I built the display model and it wouldn't run properly without sparking and pitting of the alloy tyres. Having access to Gem parts gave me the opportunity to built a LNWR 19" 4-6-0 goods and the 4-cylinder 'Prospero'. Also a trio of Compounds including the original Johnson. The bogie Tender was adapted from one meant for the CR 'Cardean'.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I too fell foul of Mr Poole's wheels. Looked nice, didn't work!