Keyser LNWR Coal Loco and Coaches

[LNWR lives on]

So I am guessing the set of Mr Poole Crewe wheels I acquired as luck with a job lot need and are earmarked for my G1 when I get around to it should be sold quick sharpish then and Romford's obtained?

 

A GWR 28xx 2-8-0 is in the 1989 catalogue and the Fowler 0-8-0 7F did make it to market, but I think it was the Stanier 8F 2-8-0 that did not make it to market.  

 

Do you have photo's of the 5 loco's you built?

 

Does the name Max Forbes ring a bell with regard to the scratch built locos? I seem to have a memory of being told Max had done Carlisle Citadel where around 6 lines converged including The Highland.

[coachmann]

I know the name Max Forbes. I am wondering if he was George Mellows architect friend. If so, then he designed the interior of George's house in Rhos-on-Sea and scratchbuilt many fine locomotives based on Scottish and LNWR prototypes. As mentioned earlier, I bought a number of locos though George after the builder passed away but he would not sell his Claughton!

[Merfyn Jones]

I was privileged to visit Max Forbes at Waenfawr to see the magnificent Carlisle Layout and it's stock. A very nice old fashioned sort of gentleman. He was a regular visitor to Rhos Road.

Now if you want a good size layout in your loft then becoming an architect is certainly the way to go.

Merf.

[LNWR lives on]

Max Forbes was in the Caernarvonshire Architect's department so we believe, based as Mervin has said in Waenfawr and in older magazines I have found letters from him regarding corrections to models and drawings which would fit with the architect side of his life

 

As Max had a love of locomotives I wonder if he had a hand in suggesting the prototypes GEM produced, possibly in saying to George you could do the J36 on the J83 chassis etc

 

Also wonder if he had a hand in the GEM locomotive drawings series....

[5050]

So I am guessing the set of Mr Poole Crewe wheels I acquired as luck with a job lot need and are earmarked for my G1 when I get around to it should be sold quick sharpish then and Romford's obtained?

I recommend this course of action!  The SP wheels were 'theoretically' going to be great - according to magazine reviews as they looked good and had excellent conductivity for one thing - but in practice they were hopeless.

[coachmann]

Max Forbes was in the Caernarvonshire Architect's department so we believe, based as Mervin has said in Waenfawr and in older magazines I have found letters from him regarding corrections to models and drawings which would fit with the architect side of his life

 

As Max had a love of locomotives I wonder if he had a hand in suggesting the prototypes GEM produced, possibly in saying to George you could do the J36 on the J83 chassis etc

 

Also wonder if he had a hand in the GEM locomotive drawings series....

George M. was asked to dispose of Max Forbes models and negative collection and amongst the locos he kept for himself was a NBR Atlantic. But the NBR range came about 'by accident' due to pattern-maker Geoff making patterns for casting a J83 tank at his home and asking George to cast it for him. George suggested it be marketed under the GEM label and it's success led to the J36, Glen, Atlantic and Scott.

[Andy Hayter]

There have been several references to the coal tank being the only Keyser LNWR locomotive, but I am sure that I have an unbuilt Lady of the Lake produced late on from this firm.

It still raises the question why there was a huge gap between the 2 releases and maybe they simply found that other areas/regions were more popular.

[Jol Wilkinson]

K's introduced a Milestones range, which included a LNWR Problem. The kits later passed to Kay Butler's IKB range but seemingly with the exception of the parts available from the Broad gauge Society, are no longer available.

 

The pattern for the smokebox/cylinder casting was modified for the London Road Models Problem,/Lady of the Lake kit to provide the option of  the early flat smokebox door or later circular door versions. The pattern was returned to IKB in that form so that the IKB kit could be re-issued with the earlier option but it seems that nothing happened.

 

[LNWR lives on]

There have been several references to the coal tank being the only Keyser LNWR locomotive, but I am sure that I have an unbuilt Lady of the Lake produced late on from this firm.

It still raises the question why there was a huge gap between the 2 releases and maybe they simply found that other areas/regions were more popular.

 

I had forgotten that Keyser did the LNWR Problem, mainly as I always think of those as Milestones range than Keyser products. They also did a Metroploitan Tank which covered a few companies including the LNWR

 

I need to delve into the loco books and find out when the problem class ran

[Jol Wilkinson]

 From 1859 to 1907 according to http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/PassLocos/PassLoco.php?loco=02

[5050]

Found an advert from 1951 for the Zenith X3 motor.  This one is a 'joint' advert by ERG and GEM but both Evans and Jones also advertise it (presumably they obtained their supplies from ERG/GEM as per the small print) in the same issue at the same price of £1 (for a motor AND gearbox!).

 

I've also posted an ad from Romford showing another 3 pole version of the Mk IV motor design.  Did they just build one big batch of a design and then move onto another or was there a 'continuous' production of all models?

 

Note that if you add up the cost of the spare parts of the Mk IV they total £2 5s 6d which would be a reasonable saving over the RRP of £2 10s if you could put one together yourself. I wonder if anyone did?

[5050]

Don't forget that we have a specific motor thread here -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78013-1950s-motors/

[sagaguy]

It was probably the way that purchase tax was levied,completed motors had PT added,some parts didn`t.Tools didn`t have PT until VAT was introduced which gave an instant price rise .

 

 

     Ray.

[5050]

It was probably the way that purchase tax was levied,completed motors had PT added,some parts didn`t.Tools didn`t have PT until VAT was introduced which gave an instant price rise .

 

 

     Ray.

Purchase tax is shown as extra on the complete motor - 11s1d - which makes the total over £3.  Quite a lot of money then compared to average weekly wages.

[Il Grifone]

A lot of hassle and the the finished motor almost certainly would have required remagnetising. The saving was considerable however.

 

I understand purchase tax was calculated on the wholesale price, which makes its luxury rate of 33 1/3%* about the same as today's VAT rate on essentials.

 

* This varied with time.

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

Mea Culpa.  When Roy Dock had GEM I did some pattern making for him which included the NLR 0-6-0T. This was supposed to lead on to the 4-4-0T and I produced the patterns but IIRC we never quite sorted out how to deal with the exposed mainframes at the front end of the loco. 00 spacings came to the wrong bit of the buffer beam and looked wrong but if built to scale width they would cause clearance problems with the 00 back to back bogie wheels. I think that the sample you painted was probably to see how it looked with the narrow mainframes. In the end I think that Roy was too much of a perfectionist to release it. We must have been working on these things at the same time. 

I also worked for Bill Stott at Nu Cast and he gave me the patterns for the Sentinel Railcar for some modifications/completion. The body had been made by Ambrico and I was to do the bogies and other details. Unfortunately he insisted on having his own power bogie ( I had suggested using a Tenshodo) which had to be built around some cheap motors he had access to as IIRC he wanted to put everything in the box and the Tenshodos would have been too expensive to stock in quantity. I lost the same argument later when I did the plastic bodied Sentinel shunter for him and this too ended up with a less than successful chassis with the same motor.  I think that somewhere I still have the moulds for the plastic body. If memory serves me right I cut the moulds then sold mouldings at a premium rather than charging for the tooling then cheap mass production of the mouldings. I did the same with the bodies for the Sutherland Casters wagon range. 

I had nothing to do with the SP wheels but when Nu Cast bought the Stephen Poole range I had the unenviable task of repairing and refurbishing the patterns for the locos. Apart from anything else Bill wanted them made lighter. Casters tended to charge by weight of white metal so thinner patterns meant cheaper production. Some of the brass patterns I made were machined out of the solid and reducing the thickness was relatively easy. Most pattern makers soldered them up from sheet of various thicknesses though, sometimes laminated, and modifying anything was a bit of a nightmare. 

To get back to the OP  My late father built a brass bodied 2P 4-4-0 in 1949/50 I think from Hamblings punched parts - the fore runners of Jamieson kits - this had a Zenith motor/gear set and Hamblings wheels. On special occasions in the early 50s I was allowed to watch but not touch his experiments in 2 rail 00. By the time I turned in my Hornby Clockwork for my first Triang train set (1955?) he had abandoned this and returned to aeromodelling. The baseboards were turned over to me and later when I started to go "scale" his models also.  The Zenith failed soon after. The brush arrangement with the plate commutator was quite flimsy.  I replaced it with an X04. Some years later the Hamblings wheels succumbed to plastic fatigue. I originally intended to replace these with Romfords but did not get around to it and must have disposed of it at some time. In the vanity of youth I probably thought that I could get a "better" model. As a sentimental old so and so now I deeply regret not still having it. Ironically I think that the failed Zenith is still upstairs in my box of old triang motors. 

 

best wishes,

 

Ian