ollieollieollie Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Sorry if this has been asked before - I have a Bachmann Class 47 in Dutch Livery with the short range/ small fuel tanks. It has a Howes V4 Sound Chip & 20X40 Bass speaker in the recess under the fans - which I purchased new directly from them 18 months or so ago. It sounds like 2 dustbin lids being banged together. So bad I can't run it & it has remained in the box. I can't get a speaker in the fuel tank as it is too small. What is the best way to cure the tinny sound please? I have have a dozen or so other Howes Sound fitted locos that are very good so don't doubt the quality of the sound chip. Any ideas welcomed. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 THe 20X40 Bass Enhanced speaker is crap, the housing has no depth to it to generate any Bass and volume. Easy answer based on our 'Legomanbiffo' sounds are a standard 20X40 + Low Profile chamber all sealed and bedded in correctly, you will loose the fans but should get better sounds. We can do it for you if you struggle!!!! PM Me if help is required. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
legomanbiffo Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Tinny sound is a sure sign that the speaker isn't in an enclosure, or that the enclosure isn't airtight. Fixing that will improve your sound no end, regardless of who's chip it is. Bachmann make it very difficult to achieve this but you can improve things by using a low profile enclosure, or by fashioning a crude enclosure out of blu-tac. Another option is to fit a speaker in the underframe facing down, potentially the best sound of all for a Bachmann 47. PM me or Charlie if you need any further help or advice with this. Bif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollieollieollie Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Thanks for your replies chaps. Heres the problem with the putting speakers in the underframe - There isn't alot there to put a speaker into. I'll be in touch at some point to get this one sorted & I also have a couple of V3.5 decoders that have manufacturers sound on them that need a re-blow. Thanks. Ollie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal10 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 My short answer would be get a Heljan 47, there's loads of room above the bogie's. I did a 2 x 27mm mega bass conversion using homemade plasticard enclosures, following Paul Chetter's example of a Vitrains 37 in Hornby Mag 45/46/47 But I'm not really a smartarse, I then went out and bought a Bachy 47, and I've got the same problem as you! Life just ain't easy? I think I put a Loksound round enclosed in my Bachy 47, it's passable but not a patch on the Heljan which really burbles and grumbles, etc. - Both with Paulie's Zimo MX644R Regards, Alan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tarifa Posted October 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2014 It depends upon how brave you are to strip down the the model to its component parts and modify the existing "sound box" recess in the metal casting to accept a custom made base reflex speaker using the 23mm diameter speaker generally supplied. Its not a five minute job in fact more like many many hours but the result is worth while. Two methods of work are available to you, Design your box to fit the volume you intend to fill. Mark out the longitudinal profile of the speaker on the casting, then either; Cut and file the profile or have a local workshop mill it for you (provide the machinist with your dimensions) Once the profile is cut make your sound box to suit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Ollie, Here's a way I have found to be very effective when available depth is limited, and believe me, I've tried out lots of alternatives, many of which have formed the basis of my Hornby Magazine DCC sound install features. It uses a Tortured Path technique to separate the sounds from the front of the speaker from those from the back. Grand sounding words, but simply means using the loco roof as the speaker baffle and the whole body as the enclosure. As the rear sounds have a long way to travel, with lots of stuff in the way, (a Tortured Path) there is no need for a completely sealed rear enclosure*. It requires the speaker to be sealed to the roof next to an opening. Fan grilles are a good example, though it might mean clearing any clutter from the roof moulding to allow the speaker to sit squarely. Here's an example of how it's done; though this is a Class 25, the principle remains the same. You might be surprised at how good this can sound. A lot of people hearing it during my sound demos can't believe I've not fitted a bass reflex speaker. *A complete seal of speaker to roof, however, is absolutely essential for this to be effective. Glue, mastic or even Blu Tack can sort this very inexpensively. Good luck, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal10 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Well, as the saying goes, 'burger me' Paul, I was just about to add some photo's in praise of your other method, Oh sod it, here goes! The inside of my Heljan 47 with 2 x 27mm in handmade enclosures, This loco has also had a complete set of new SMD LEDs for the headcodes, and Tail lights, for which I drilled through the castings in the noses to get the LEDs close up behind the lenses. Works a treat. This is the same loco, (minus buffer beams, they get snagged upon body removal, so easier to leave off for this exercise) Now then, Charlie, and Bif, how about a speaker in the tanks for this? It's another clip on job by just like the 26 / 27 so what do you think? And whilst we are on the same subject, My Bachy 47 seems to have long range tanks, so how about that as another candidate? And back to Paulie's configuration, In my Bachmann I 47 actually put the same Alan Butcher rectangular speaker in the same way as Paul's 25 I'm sorry but it's not a patch on the twin arrangement in the Heljan! That said, I did the Heljan 47 about 2 years ago, and when I now compare it to other more recent builds, it doesn't quite have the overall sound that I would really like, so I might relook at this project. Regards, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Well, as the saying goes, 'burger me' Paul, I was just about to add some photo's in praise of your other method, Oh sod it, here goes! image.jpg The inside of my Heljan 47 with 2 x 27mm in handmade enclosures, This loco has also had a complete set of new SMD LEDs for the headcodes, and Tail lights, for which I drilled through the castings in the noses to get the LEDs close up behind the lenses. Works a treat. image.jpg This is the same loco, (minus buffer beams, they get snagged upon body removal, so easier to leave off for this exercise) Now then, Charlie, and Bif, how about a speaker in the tanks for this? It's another clip on job by just like the 26 / 27 so what do you think? And whilst we are on the same subject, image.jpg My Bachy 47 seems to have long range tanks, so how about that as another candidate? And back to Paulie's configuration, image.jpg In my Bachmann I 47 actually put the same Alan Butcher rectangular speaker in the same way as Paul's 25 I'm sorry but it's not a patch on the twin arrangement in the Heljan! That said, I did the Heljan 47 about 2 years ago, and when I now compare it to other more recent builds, it doesn't quite have the overall sound that I would really like, so I might relook at this project. Regards, Alan Alan, No problem. Ollie is looking for suggestions, it will be up to him to see which suits him best. I've no axe to grind on this. I'm not surprised that your twin Hi Bass speakers in the Heljan surpass the single 20x40mm speaker in the Bachmann 47, but the Bach just does not have the space to fit that twin arrangement nor to put something 'meaty' in the tanks. In my testing, (and therefore to my 'ear') the sound from a speaker sealed against the roof gives a clearer, less muddied sound than speakers in shallow enclosures not sealed against the roof. If there was a little more depth, I would suggest the 28 x 40mm speaker I used in the RAIL EXCLUSIVE ViTrains 47 (Charlie has a new version, 4 Ohms 3W) as this gives plenty of volume and suits the character of the Class 47 exhaust. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal10 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Ooh.. Now this just gets better and better! My Bachmann, shown above with its larger tanks, has the on/off switch poking through, which, just like the 37/0 can be done away with with some careful re wiring, so what are the chances of Charlie's new speaker there?. In the meantime, I need to look at the RE vitrains offering....... Ollie, I hope this is whetting your appetite also? Cheers all, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Alan, I just fitted one up with the RE kit and a 166,666uF stay alive ready for my demos at the Great Electric Train Show this weekend at Gaydon. Now my 47 can go 'off-roading' too. Lol. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal10 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Oh borrocks! I'm off to China on Tuesday, so squeezing in another Railway show this weekend would be just too much! See you at Warley in November? Alan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
legomanbiffo Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I'll echo Paul's comments on the 'tortured path' method. I've never heard it called that before but I understand the analogy. As long as the path is sufficiently long it works very well. I used it in my 73 and Eurostar amongst other things. As Paul says, the seal around the speaker itself must be completely airtight or the method won't work. The best sound I have achieved in a 4mm 47 was in my Rail Exclusive ViTrains one with a speaker fit virtually identical to the one pictured above. Better even than a single bass reflex in the tanks. I will obtain a Heljan 47 and see what could be done with the tanks as suggested. Bif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Hey Bif, Thanks for your support. Tortured Path is a technical term in accoustics. RE ViTrains Class 47 bespoke speaker kit. These are pictures of the mock-up I made prior to the laser cut version which comes with the RE ViTrains kit. It uses a 28 x 40mm speaker, has a carrier for the fans and the production model has a spacer tab to ensure fans are central to the roof grilles when fitted. The curved ends were made using ViTrains' own production drawings for a perfect fit. Of course, regular Hornby Magazine readers will have seen all this a couple of years ago in the leading 'DCC sound' monthly. I spend lots of time testing the alternatives so readers don't have to. I've learned from experience not to assume one speaker type/location will always give the best results. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike knowles Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 RE ViTrains Class 47 bespoke speaker kit. P7220188a.jpg Paul Hello Paul Is this kit/adaptor available as a separate item? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Sorry, I don't know. This is now a RAIL EXCLUSIVE item. Originally it was just available for RE's own sound fitted RfD 47s. The decoder, speaker and fitting kit have been available as a complete kit for some time now. Have a word with RE to check current situation. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
legomanbiffo Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Paul, Will you have an RE 47 with that speaker fit at Gaydon, I'd quite like to compare it with mine? I was going to have a read about tortured path but couldn't find any reference to it searching for tortured path audio / acoustics / sound and combinations thereof? Can you direct me to any info online? Bif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollieollieollie Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Thanks all for the input. I'm amazed by the level of interest in my question - thanks again! I tried Heljan 47s & they were not for me. Personal choice really. I prefer the look of the Bachmann ones & I also have a Vi-Trains version which I think is very good too. However there is clearly a stack of room for the speakers in the Heljan. I wish i had the tools & patience to strip down the loco & mill the chassis to fit a larger speaker but I'm afraid it would end up as spares/repairs on ebay.... I think I'm going to try the 'Tortured Path' method of curing my 'Tortured Sound' as it seems like an in-expensive solution. Is there a recommended 20X40 speaker or will any standard one suffice? Another option is to fit long range fuel tanks & a 58X18 speaker as per my other 47 I suppose. I'm sure a perfectionist would notice the difference but hey, it's my loco & I'll do what I want with it! Ollie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollieollieollie Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 Right - finally done it. Fans removed, speaker attached (albeit with a couple of dobs of glue & sealed with blu-tak to test it) and the sound is much improved. Thanks for this idea. I am now however having doubts about the quality of the soundfile.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napa1985 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I've fitted a 28 x 40 in the plastic tanks underneath on my 2x 47 that was really good sound Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whistlersrule Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 The answer is quite simple, try a couple of "Sugar cube" speakers, one in each tank and then wired together, I have two Heljan 26's one of which is a converted air braked one so only has the smaller fuel tank, and it has two speakers located in this small tank and both loco's sound magnificent. My next project is to install 2 into a Bachmann class 40 with no boiler tank, the Bachmann speaker just dose not have the right sound. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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