Bachmann cancellations

[Ian Hargrave]

Ian I belive the point is are buyers prepared to pay more or in these times can afford to pay more

If not then no matter what the justification the market won't be there and Bachmann could have issues

This isn't a case of I told you so, we all want Bachmann to thrive but it is a valid observation that they could price themselves out of reach.

I don't have the market info to say that's a certainty or an uncertainty just an observation that it might be an issue

Colin

The problem is that this has already been exhaustively thrashed out elsewhere. In any case,this line of thought conveniently ignores the fact that other players new to the game are pricing themselves in the same bracket.The competition charges the same.

[ThaneofFife]

The problem is that this has already been exhaustively thrashed out elsewhere. In any case,this line of thought conveniently ignores the fact that other players new to the game are pricing themselves in the same bracket.The competition charges the same.

Try telling Rapido that with their APTE or DJM and the groupfunding the Pendolino 9 car set at £250 to name just two.

[Mad McCann]

Crowdfunding may well be the way ahead and it suits manufacturers who no longer have to risk producing a model that doesn't wash its face financially. Much as I love Bachmann's Jubilee and Patriot, these models unfortunately fall into that category. With a crowdfunding exercise, everybody who wants something and is happy to pay for it, gets what they want and so does the manufacturer who knows just how many units he has to make and how much profit he will make from the exercise, without the speculative risk.

[farren]

Would that not put another nail in the coffin of the model shop and would it do harm to the magazines as why bother with them if it can all be done on the web.? Just a thought

[Dunsignalling]

I've been thinking along similar lines. If your product is unaffordable to the customer, or not seen as value for money, you don't have a business do you?

How far we can indulge our interest in model railways is, like every other non-essential field of life, a balancing act between the cost of the activity and one's resources (of time and skill as well as money). It is quite possible, and probably more rewarding, to enjoy the hobby with relatively little of the latter if one has enough of the other two. 

  

The critical unknown in this discussion is is what proportion of customers will fall into the "can't pay / won't pay" category at a given price level. To put it in rather brutal economic terms, if it's fairly small, they "leave the marketplace" (probably protesting noisily) but the business carries on, albeit with reduced unit volume. 

 

I don't think Bachmann had any choice but to do what they did and genuine "can't pay" customers can only stay on board by concentrating on what they really want because they can't afford everything they would like. Many of us were brought up to think this way but it is not a fashionable concept nowadays and a decade of being able to buy lots of brilliant new models for disproportionately little money led some of us astray!

 

Those days are gone but some are clearly taking longer than others to get the message. The vital thing is to convince the "won't pay" brigade that this is the new reality, not a blip or profiteering, and keep them buying. The overall effect on Bachmann (and all the others) will only become clear over time but a reduction in volume can, of itself, lead to further price rises, making more customers fall by the wayside etc etc...... 

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not at all sure how this thread has turned into a debate about Bachmann's pricing because we simply don't know the reason for the cancellation of these items although some of them (such as the Swindon 'Warship' and possibly the 'Hall' have ostensibly logical explanations which might have very little to do with price).  It could be a matter of production capacity, or down to lack of orders or whatever - we simply don't know.

 

Some folk seem to think it's a convenient opportunity to have a(nother) go about Bachmann price rises - if you think that is the case just ask yourself which and how many of these cancelled items you would have bought if they were coming to market at last year's price and which orders for any of these items you have cancelled because of the price rises announced this year.  How many of you would have bought the Class 42, Swindon, 'Warship' with the Class 43, NBL, one coming rapidly over the horizon - answers, I suspect, on a postage stamp.

 

The days of knock-out bargain basement prices have gone and I doubt they'll ever come back.  As John (Dunsignalling) has made very clear we now adjust our buying - as far as fancy allows us - to suit what we want to model/portray rather than what would be nice, or fun etc, to have.  If the manufacturers make the right things to suit what the market really wants it they will probably continue to sell but if they don't they'll probably do something else instead - and we'll be the poorer for it.

[GordonC]

I've been thinking along similar lines. If your product is unaffordable to the customer, or not seen as value for money, you don't have a business do you?

 

I'm not entirely sure how anyone could disagree with that statement, its pretty factual really. They might not like it, but its pretty accurate! I cant see the government stepping in with a '25% discount on model railways' scheme to keep everyone in toys

 

I wonder whether this might happen more often where models are announced, before later being cancelled when the manufacturer/commissioner gauges interest is not enough to make a profit. Maybe we need to register our interest more through pre-orders than anything else whenever these opportunities to buy things we're really interested in arise.

 

But to look on it in the other way, it may be better for our hobby in general that the plug gets pulled on models which may struggle to sell before (larger) losses are made and precious production spots can be re-assigned to other models which do sell.

[Ian Hargrave]

I'm not entirely sure how anyone could disagree with that statement, its pretty factual really. They might not like it, but its pretty accurate! I cant see the government stepping in with a '25% discount on model railways' scheme to keep everyone in toys

 

I wonder whether this might happen more often where models are announced, before later being cancelled when the manufacturer/commissioner gauges interest is not enough to make a profit. Maybe we need to register our interest more through pre-orders than anything else whenever these opportunities to buy things we're really interested in arise.

 

But to look on it in the other way, it may be better for our hobby in general that the plug gets pulled on models which may struggle to sell before (larger) losses are made and precious production spots can be re-assigned to other models which do sell.[/quote

It is also value laden and ....as The Stationmaster,Mike ,has eloquently posted above,has little relevance to the reasoning as to why Bachmann have pulled these items from their catalogue.Speculation on the future of any company is never a good idea...especially when no one here is in possession of any information whatsoever as to why.And yes,I will re emphasise what Mike has posted..it does seem to be another round of Barwell bashing.I sometimes wonder if some really grasp the ultimate significance of what they post.

Hornby have come in for a great deal of stick....didn't incidentally suffer much criticism for their not insubstantial price rises...they now seem to be in the process of reinventing themselves,which is good news....so now it's Bachmann's turn in the sin bin ? What goes round comes round.

[Bon Accord]

So the message is that when we see annual above RPI price rises we should on no account talk about it except in the positive, embrace those rises with a song in our hearts and in true "Animal House" style chant "thank you sir, may I have another".

Well that's that sorted then..

[Ian Hargrave]

So the message is that when we see annual above RPI price rises we should on no account talk about it except in the positive, embrace those rises with a song in our hearts and in true "Animal House" style chant "please sir, can I have another".

Well that's that sorted then..

Or put a little more diplomatically,maybe,choose not to buy.Which is the option you will doubtless be exercising. Were you ,incidentally,referring to Orwell's 'Animal Farm' or perhaps a group whose works are unbeknown to me?

[GordonC]

I'm not entirely sure how anyone could disagree with that statement, its pretty factual really. They might not like it, but its pretty accurate! I cant see the government stepping in with a '25% discount on model railways' scheme to keep everyone in toys

 

I wonder whether this might happen more often where models are announced, before later being cancelled when the manufacturer/commissioner gauges interest is not enough to make a profit. Maybe we need to register our interest more through pre-orders than anything else whenever these opportunities to buy things we're really interested in arise.

 

But to look on it in the other way, it may be better for our hobby in general that the plug gets pulled on models which may struggle to sell before (larger) losses are made and precious production spots can be re-assigned to other models which do sell.[/quote

It is also value laden and ....as The Stationmaster,Mike ,has eloquently posted above,has little relevance to the reasoning as to why Bachmann have pulled these items from their catalogue.Speculation on the future of any company is never a good idea...especially when no one here is in possession of any information whatsoever as to why.And yes,I will re emphasise what Mike has posted..it does seem to be another round of Barwell bashing.I sometimes wonder if some really grasp the ultimate significance of what they post.

Hornby have come in for a great deal of stick....didn't incidentally suffer much criticism for their not insubstantial price rises...they now seem to be in the process of reinventing themselves,which is good news....so now it's Bachmann's turn in the sin bin ? What goes round comes round.

 

Nothing I said was bashing Bachmann in any way or speculating on their future. If anything, I was supporting them ... if you want something ... go out and pre-order it so they know your interest!

[darren01]

One thing is that when Bachmann announce a new model they never give a price,only a TBA.

This give you no clue on how much the final cost of the model will be.

So by pre-ordering your not going to know the to cost and when the total price is announced,it can come as a little shock.

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Nothing I said was bashing Bachmann in any way or speculating on their future. If anything, I was supporting them ... if you want something ... go out and pre-order it so they know your interest!

I was not suggesting that YOU specifically were, only that the general tenor of this thread is,as colleague Mike (Stationmaster) points out,heading in that direction. It is also a theme that was well-aired some time ago at some length and with feelings running high all round and the message here from some is,to me at any rate,perfectly clear that those feelings haven't gone away.Like it or not,posing questions such as 'you don't have a business ' may be in general terms empirically correct but in this particular context  IS value laden with a clear underlying suggestion/implication.I for one consider it inappropriate in the here and now of this topic and I really have to ask why replay a 'grudge match'?

[Banger Blue]

..........Were you ,incidentally,referring to Orwell's 'Animal Farm' or perhaps a group whose works are unbeknown to me?

National Lampoon's Animal House (1978) starring John Belushi

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/

[Bon Accord]

Or put a little more diplomatically,maybe,choose not to buy.Which is the option you will doubtless be exercising. Were you ,incidentally,referring to Orwell's 'Animal Farm' or perhaps a group whose works are unbeknown to me?

 

Will I indeed? I hadn't realised that if you're in any way less than positive about such increases then a personal boycott of all products was required. My own modelling interests centre North of the border, so by and large there isn't a huge amount the big 3 produce that is of particular interest unless it's modified/renumbered etc. Thankfully my own personal circumstances allow that these increases will not deter me from buying models I "require", however that doesn't mean to say I'm oblivious to the plain fact that most people are not in the same position.

Why do you expect people to be happy about spending more money?

 

Incidentally, when I referred to Animal House I specifically meant the film. Scroll forward to the 1:55 mark on this video and visualise the chap with the paddle as Bachmann and the young Kevin Bacon as your Bachmann customer:

 

 

 

If you've never seen the film I'd recommend it.

[Ian Hargrave]

Will I indeed? I hadn't realised that if you're in any way less than positive about such increases then a personal boycott of all products was required. My own modelling interests centre North of the border, so by and large there isn't a huge amount the big 3 produce that is of particular interest unless it's modified/renumbered etc. Thankfully my own personal circumstances allow that these increases will not deter me from buying models I "require", however that doesn't mean to say I'm oblivious to the plain fact that most people are not in the same position.

Why do you expect people to be happy about spending more money?

 

Incidentally, when I referred to Animal House I specifically meant the film. Scroll forward to the 1:55 mark on this video and visualise the chap with the paddle as Bachmann and the young Kevin Bacon as your Bachmann customer:

 

http://youtu.be/AHppmhyNx

 

Yes,I have been put in the picture by Banger Blue (above),thank you..Your forthright John Knox - like dissenting blast probably led me,mistakenly, to assume that you would no longer be frequenting the house of Bachmann,probably in the same vein as you assume that I'm happy to be spending more or that I expect others to follow the same party line.It's called 'jumping to conclusions' .

 

What I am heartily tired of,however,are those who use the thread as a vehicle for repeating the same issue. Is it any wonder that I too jump to the conclusion that they will vote with their pockets ? The increases are here.We'll see what happens.I'm willing to bet that a fair proportion of outraged voices will still be buying from Bachmann what they desire in the coming months and years.

 

 

If you've never seen the film I'd recommend it.

[Ozexpatriate]

So the message is that when we see annual above RPI price rises we should on no account talk about it except in the positive, embrace those rises with a song in our hearts and in true "Animal House" style chant "thank you sir, may I have another".

I think the objection is about thread relevance.

 

We did have a thread about Bachmann pricing and the pricing comments belong there, but this thread was locked with the following comment by Andy York:

 

If anyone's got anything useful or illuminating to add to the topic drop me a PM and I'll review the locking.

You could make the argument that the items were cancelled due to insufficient orders caused by the prices being too high. That might be the case, but it is a pure assumption. We simply don't know.

 

Feel free to take Andy up on his suggestion if you have something new to add to the pricing discussion.

 

In the case of the GWR ROD, there have already been a couple of different models made (at least two I think but could be wrong.) Do people need/want a third? Demand is very likely dropping for this item irrespective of the price.

 

(Most) everyone gripes about duplication by manufacturers. Hornby is coming out with a model of Rood Ashton Hall. Perhaps Bachmann has decided that the market for BR liveried Halls will be too crowded for them to sell the whole run, particularly if people wait for the Hornby model to come, so they yanked Burton Hall? No one has raised a "Hooray for Bachmann for taking a 'brave and strategic decision' not to create a duplication in Halls" cheer. (Not that they should mind you, but this is the result of their decision.)

 

There are lots of production issues that might be the reasons why Bachmann cancelled these items besides lack of orders due to retail pricing and we simply don't know. 

[Ronny]

Tell you what makes me less inclined to pre-order Bachmann locomotives is buying the NRM edition Midland compound at full price then Rails selling them split off from the train set at darned near half the price I paid.

 

Yeah I know, a zillion miles off topic but I still feel burned. Any of you chaps that hobnob with Bachmann, feel free to pass on my feelings.

[Ian Hargrave]

Tell you what makes me less inclined to pre-order Bachmann locomotives is buying the NRM edition Midland compound at full price then Rails selling them split off from the train set at darned near half the price I paid.

 

Yeah I know, a zillion miles off topic but I still feel burned. Any of you chaps that hobnob with Bachmann, feel free to pass on my feelings.

Ronny...you said it yourself.'Off Topic'. As you have highlighted an issue ...so you seem to think....of some members of this forum who have privileged access to Bachmann,perhaps you would care to expand further?

As far asI am aware,the only members of this forum who are in contact with Bachman are those who do so on a strictly professional basis...Andy Y obviously being one,as he is a journalist. I know of one other who works for them on a contractual arrangement and whose work is strictly confidential.There may be others.

 

If you feel 'burned'.as you so quaintly put it by a sudden price drop,consider the case of Hornby's drastic price cuts recently with their 2-BIL.I paid nearly double for it than I could have if I'd bought it right now..There are other examples of 'stock clearance' that can be quoted.I am not complaining.It's what happens.You win some,you lose some.Market economics?

 

Inflammatory foaming doesn't help anyone,especially when it is ill considered.No doubt in the land of the free ,you prize the expression 'shooting from the hip'.There is a difference between that and another one,which is.....'shooting off at the mouth'.

[Ryde-on-time]

Ronny...you said it yourself.'Off Topic'. As you have highlighted an issue ...so you seem to think....of some members of this forum who have privileged access to Bachmann,perhaps you would care to expand further?

As far asI am aware,the only members of this forum who are in contact with Bachman are those who do so on a strictly professional basis...Andy Y obviously being one,as he is a journalist. I know of one other who works for them on a contractual arrangement and whose work is strictly confidential.There may be others.

 

Well as someone who knows Dennis Lovett (Damn it, I've even slept with him!) perhaps he means me. Won't be happy though if Dennis has been blabbing!

 

Seriously though the model of 10000 was discussed at length when the new set was announced and more recently Andy posted a statement from Bachmann about it. If anyone is unhappy they should contact the appropriate parties direct

 

This really has turned into a Bachmann bashing thread. Of the Hundreds of OO scales items Bachmann have on their website they have simply taken a commercial desicion to cancel half a dozen. We just need adrianbs to wade in ans remind us what an appalling model the 00 gauge pillbox brake is................................

[Downendian]

A bit of non-Bachmann bashing from me.

 

The cancellation of D810 weathered blue is completely justified economically with the retooled class 43 round the corner which will be a substantial improvement. Indeed the preorder price for the old tooled D810 was more expensive than the new NBL toolings, at least on the box shifter site I use. It's really a no-brainer, but can see why somebody wanting a factory weathered item maybe disappointed.

 

Yes I know there are a few detail differences between class 42 and 43 (lights, scavenger grilles and a few more) but it won't take Bachmann too much to tweak the new tooling to produce a new 42. There were differences in routes operated too, but this is of marginal value in modelling.

 

Despite a relatively limited operational period (1958-1972) the warships still punch above their weight in model terms. Models are available in all three (well forthcoming in O) gauges reflecting the pull of the steam-diesel transition era.

 

The old mainline-Palitoy tooling looks like it's seen its last action - RIP to probably the most economically useful tool Bachmann and previous owners has ever owned.

 

Neil

[Ian Hargrave]

Well as someone who knows Dennis Lovett (Damn it, I've even slept with him!) perhaps he means me. Won't be happy though if Dennis has been blabbing!

 

Seriously though the model of 10000 was discussed at length when the new set was announced and more recently Andy posted a statement from Bachmann about it. If anyone is unhappy they should contact the appropriate parties direct

 

This really has turned into a Bachmann bashing thread. Of the Hundreds of OO scales items Bachmann have on their website they have simply taken a commercial desicion to cancel half a dozen. We just need adrianbs to wade in ans remind us what an appalling model the 00 gauge pillbox brake is................................

May God in His Infinite Mercy spare us!

[Bon Accord]

Ronny...you said it yourself.'Off Topic'. As you have highlighted an issue ...so you seem to think....of some members of this forum who have privileged access to Bachmann,perhaps you would care to expand further?

 

The way certain individuals tend to jump into (seemingly) any thread which contains critical posts of Bachmann and/or Hornby and then immediately defend them will likely give rise to such thoughts.

 

 

 

Inflammatory foaming doesn't help anyone,especially when it is ill considered.No doubt in the land of the free ,you prize the expression 'shooting from the hip'.There is a difference between that and another one,which is.....'shooting off at the mouth'.

 

Well actually it does tend to make people feel better. Your last is basically a slightly more polite way of telling Ronny to hold his tongue.

[Xerces Fobe2]

With al these cancellations my a great market opportunity to link up with a TOC for a Limited Edition that will fail to arrive

[Purley Oaks]

Ronny...you said it yourself.'Off Topic'.

If you feel 'burned'.as you so quaintly put it by a sudden price drop,consider the case of Hornby's drastic price cuts recently with their 2-BIL.I paid nearly double for it than I could have if I'd bought it right now..There are other examples of 'stock clearance' that can be quoted.I am not complaining.It's what happens.You win some,you lose some.Market economics?

 

Inflammatory foaming doesn't help anyone

I think that Ronny makes a reasonable point (without foaming) about limited edition models.

 

The BILs were standard stock and Hornby probably over-ordered when the first tranche sold out so quickly. I'm glad that I bought mine when it was released otherwise I may have missed out, it's a great model imo.

 

I do, however, have a Bachmann Ivatt 2MT on pre-order, so happy that wasn't cancelled...yet...  

 

Mal