Southern Utility van (triang style) livery q - crimson?

[jonhall]

I'm in the process of painting a SR utility van (of the style that was made by Triang, although this particular example is an etched Chivers kit) into BR Crimson, and I'm pondering how to treat the vertical body strapping where it is alongside the solebar. I assume that the solebar would be black, but would the strapping change to black at solebar level, or would it remain crimson to the bottom?

 

My instinct is that it follow the same style as this http://www.ehattons.com/25792/Hornby_R4347B_BR_Crimson_Maunsell_Passenger_Brake_Van_c_B/StockDetail.aspx but I'm conscious that Hornby may have painted body&chassis separately and therefore left the bottom of the straps red because it was one less paint operation to paint them black.

 

As a related question, what colour would the body ends be - black or crimson?

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Jon

[phil-b259]

I know its not crimson but is this any help (I can't imagine BR being different when it comes to which bits are black).

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/beerdave1745/5471904725/

[jonhall]

I'm not really keen on replicating either someone else's model, or as preserved - these things have a habit of being 'made up' on the spot (which I'll accept also happened on the 'real railway' too

 

Jon

[Combe Martin]

The ends would be black, Triang (and Hornby) got this right.  I've still got an original green Triang one that I bought when I was a kid in the very early '60s.  It's being gradually detailed with a Roxey detailing kit plus lots of my own scratch made bits (the Roxey kit doesn't do it all).  The Triang model was first made when some of the real ones (a few) still existed so their colours were correct.

 

A couple of points,

 

Very few were recorded as being repainted in BR green, the David Gould book only lists 4 (2286/2302/2318/2351) and all were short ones, but there was at least one other (and the Triang/Hornby model is a long one), so unless you have more info or a colour photo showing the number then it's safest to paint it BR Crimson.  If anyone has any more info on this, I'm desperate to paint mine green.  

 

Only 17 were not withdrawn by the end of 1960, and of those, 14 were withdrawn by the end of 1961, leaving 3 in 1962 including the Winston Churchill Funeral Van.  However, some did survive afterwards in departmental or internal service.

 

Quite a few (33) were modified with droplight windows in the central doors including the funeral van, so be careful how you number it.

 

Finally, all the drawings I've seen published, the one in the David Gould book, the one supplied with the Roxey kit, and the one in the Mike King book, are wrong in the area of the battery box.  All show the boxes mounted centrally exactly behind each other, whereas each is actually mounted centrally but offset to the left as you look at it from the side.  I have studied the preserved ones at Robertsbridge and The Bluebell to confirm this.  Also, if you look at any published photo that is exactly side on you can just see this too.  

[Combe Martin]

The base of the vertical strapping colour may vary.  I've found one 1960 colour photo of the Golden Arrow where the strapping on the GBL (or corridor PMV) is definitely green all the way down, but another where it looks the same as the dirty underframe (on a green van). 

[Combe Martin]

An update on the above (it wont let me edit it), I've now found a 1954 colour photo of the Golden Arrow at Victoria, the GBL is crimson (clean) but the bottom of the vertical strapping is black(ish) .  Maybe they started painting all the strapping with the body colour when they started to use green.  I have seen some pictures of 4 wheel long wheelbase vans (CCT type) in green with the green paint extended all the way down.

[bécasse]

It is worth remembering that all these wooden bodied vans with outside steel strapping (both 4w and bogie) attracted brake block dust like nothing else and they were very difficult to clean so the "colour" was usually distinctly nondescript. I remember some years later trying to work out whether a particular 4w van was green or blue, I never did manage to identify the actual paint colour but cleaning a small patch of the lettering (which had also largely disappeared below the grime) suggested that it was almost certainly blue.

 

The bogie vans that were kept cleanest were those used for RL on the boat trains.

[Middlesea John]

I'm not keen on these generic railway books that seem to take up all most of the transport shelves in the large booksellers nowadays but I am the proud owner of one called "Rails to the Sea" by John Hadrill.  On Page 60 there is a picture taken from a hill overlooking the town of Seaton.  Virtually the whole of the station is visible with M7 and 2 coaches in the (incredibly long) platform.  However, in the yard behind can be made out 3 of these vehicles.  One is green, the other two are red.  The picture isn't dated and the trains are far too far away to make out any detail but the evidence is there - they can be painted BR crimson or Southern Region green.  The picture is credited to T.B.Owen / Colour-Rail BRS369.  If you put this into Google, you can see it.

[Mallard60022]

That platform could take 12 coaches (ready for holiday excursions etc.)

Phil

[brightspark]

I am having trouble finding any pictures of these. Especially in 1960.

Can anyone post pictures/ links etc?

[jonhall]

I was leafing through a book on a trade stand today (possibly titled Southern Vans and coaches in colour? ) when I came across a photo of crimson van B with obviously red to the bottom of the solebar strapping.

 

Jon

[jonhall]

To come back to this thread again, I've been reading the Gould book and have identified a series of numbers for both my Chivers and 3x Triang Utility Vans that match the right configuration of doors without droplights etc, what I've forgotten to do thus far, is add the pipe along the solebar - this is shown on the drawings as appearing only on one side, but I've seen some photo's with the pipe visible and the handbrake wheel on the left and some with the brake wheel on the right - is there a pattern to steam heat pipe placement between batches, or was it 'random' ?

 

Thanks,

 

Jon

[Combe Martin]

The van on the Bluebell railway has a pipe both sides.  I crawled all over and under this once and from memory it's a vacuum pipe one side and steam heat the other side.  Also one is a fatter pipe than the other.  The brake wheel is on both sides.  I'm away from home at the moment so can't check my model , but I recall the pipe(s) disappear under the sole bar at certain places and then reappear, (to go behind the brake wheel ?).  I can check my model on Monday if it'll help. 

 

I've also looked at the other preserved GBL/Corr PMV at Robertsbridge, and as I recall it's the same as the Bluebell one in these details.  Also as I said in one of my earlier posts, all the drawings I've seen have some errors.  Good photos seem very rare, but they and the preserved vans confirm this.  Although the Bluebell van has been restored now, when I looked at the Robertsbridge van it seemed original.   The Bluebell van is the one that had been modified with wider doors in it's later days, but these have been replaced with standard width doors now.  I think the Bluebell van is number 2462 or 2464 (something like that, as I said I'm away at the moment) but I don't recall the number of the Robertsbridge van.       

 

When choosing a number for your models, it's not just the vans with droplight windows to avoid (unless you've modified yours), don't forget there were 2 different length vans (the Triang/Hornby is the longer one) and also some of the shorter vans had the bogie pivot nearer the end of the underframe as I recall, so are a longer wheelbase.