South Wales main line in the late-30's

[neilrh]

Hi, my name is Neil. I've been living in the US for about 15 years now,  so I may mix US/UK terms, and will definitely be working in US Imperial measurements. Over the years I've moved around a lot, and I'm now what could reasonably be determined as "settled" in Michigan (which is kind of handy for British Model Railway shows across the northern border).

 

My general interest is GWR, having been introduced to railway modeling by my Grandfather (a Welshman), who modeled post-grouping through early 1930's locomotives but much of the passenger and freight stock was early-BR, with a heavy bias towards coal traffic (obviously). I have a growing library of GW (and pre-grouping Welsh Valleys) books.

 

Anyway on to the statement of intent. Since we're now settled, I have gained wifey permission to build a model railway, and I get to use part of a 21'x21' room (she gets one side for her crafting stuff). Main benchwork construction I hope to commence in the new year - there's stuff (not railway) still in boxes from the move 3 years ago (so probably throwing most of it), and a couple more walls to paint, before I'm allowed to fix anything in place (and Santa is expected to bring some carpentry toys to assist with the project). So at the moment I'm still in the planning stage, but have some fairly firm ideas.

 

The model will be somewhat based around the South Wales mainline - red route, so I can run heavy traffic and close to full length passenger trains (only Kings would be out of place, and westernized pre-grouping Welsh Valley's stock would not be out of place). I plan to model late 30's into WWII, so older (pre-30s) livery and shirtbutton logo would common, with maybe a couple wartime austerity vehicles. Location would also allow for GW hauled Southern and LMS passenger services (possibly 1 of each) for variety.

 

As far as scenic plans go, I'm considering three 20' scenes, with scene #1 along the main wall, and scene #2 & #3, using a 10' end and half of the back 20' each. A hidden fiddle yard would be situated under scenes #2 & #3, also along the back 20', with access east & west from scene #1. Train progression would be depart from scene #1, behind #2, into #3, then behind #1, into #2, finally running behind #3 returning to the start point in #1 - this gives about 120' total running (2 circuits) not including running to/from the fiddle yard, which would add another 60'.

 

The fiddle (storage) yard would be 2" below the level of scene #1, with a 10' descent, 10' yard, 20' climb each way - my math says the gradients should be within traction capabilities of most models available. Scenes #2 & #3 would be further elevated by another 2"-3", giving sufficient access to the fiddle yard.

 

Scene content and final track plans are still in the planning stage. Initial thought for scene #1 was a 4 track main line - 2 tracks to fiddle yard/2 to upper scenes - with a station and full cross-over to allow access between upper scenes and fiddle yard. I've drawn a couple of plans, station in the middle, or offset to scene entrance on right or left - middle doesn't seem to work too well (when you have a 7'-8' platform length) and the approach pointwork potentially uses up a lot of space when you have 2 visible approaches. However I've also started to consider a junction and marshalling yard and skipping the station entirely (partly because I can't find a 4-track station plan that's not on the GWML out of Paddington!). Also I think I can go with at least 1 scene with no passenger facilities. Scenes #2 & #3 are less planned at this stage - probably include coal mine on one, and maybe a short length station in one for local trains.

 

Well that's about all I can think of as an introduction. I would love some comment/advice on plans so far. Anyone with experience running long trains and gradients? Is 3 scenes too much for the space I have? Are there things I might want to consider adding to the plan?

 

Thanks

Neil

[TonyMay]

My head hurst.  Can you draw us a back of the envelope diagram with what goes where?  You shouldn't be too specific at this stage; just blocking or zoning.

 

Also, you've not specified which scale/gauge you're modelling in.  Should we assume OO by default?

[The Stationmaster]

That sounds interesting but I'm not sure what you are saying about height differences and gradients - could you amplify please.

 

BTW 47XX were also barred from South Wales.

[neilrh]

Sorry for the exclusions - yes OO scale, intend to use Peco 75, with mix of DCC running and DC point/signal switching - I've tried switching on DCC and it can get a bit laborious, I like the idea of switch panels with single route buttons, and LED feedback, where applicable. And I think I have sufficient understanding of electronics to (eventually) wire in some electronic locks & resets between selected route and signalling.

 

Good tip on the 47xx's, wasn't planning on going there, I don't see 60mph mineral trains rattling through. Though the 8-coupled mineral haulers are definitely a strong contender for inclusion (eventually).

 

In an attempt to describe the gradients:

Lowest level: fiddle (storage) yard

Low to middle ramps: storage to scene#1 will be an ascent of 2" over about 20', so grade would be 1:120, descent will be 2" over about 10', so grade would be 1:60 - I don't think a steep descent should be much of a problem, my concern is more for loco adhesion on the climbs with longer trains.

Middle level: scene #1, with interchange between low level storage and high level scenes.

Middle to upper ramps: would be 2"-3" over 20', giving a grade of between 1:80 to 1:120.

Upper levels: scenes #2 & #3.

 

I'll get to drawing pictures when I get home tonight - I might be able to find some crayons.

[neilrh]

OK, hopefully this might make some sense of things...

[TonyMay]

When you say does it necessarily mean one physical half?  Going around each of the 4 walls really wouldn't take up that much more space and would leave her with all of the middle of the room for her things which would probably be bigger than a nominal half of the room.

 

Secondly, it appears that you will have a lot of hidden tracks.  They require good access in case anything comes off.  Also they lead to less appearance time of the train.

 

Thirdly, remember you have quite a bit of space but you still won't be able to get away without compression.

 

Fourthly, the design of big layouts is usually driven by the design of the fiddle yards, and you're still going to have to compromise somewhat between display space and train length.

 

Finally, remember that grades also require vertical curves so dividing the hiehgt by the length gives the average grade not the maximum grade.

[Fat Controller]

Four-track station (presumably you mean the arrangement with loops serving the platforms and through roads in the middle?)

Marshalling yard?

South Wales 'main line'..

How about Felin Fran on the Swansea District line? The passenger service stopping at the station didn't last that long, but there were Fishguard boat trains, milk and perishable trains, and lots of coal workings. Virtually all freight workings to and from the west came this way, due to the steep gradients in both directions on the route via Cockett Bank. Some perishable workings changed locos here, with a new loco coming up the Morriston branch, whilst, when the Landore- Neath section of the SWML was unavailable, expresses from Swansea to Paddington and v/v would use the same route. There were two diverging routes off the main line; the Morriston branch on the Down side, and the Clydach branch on the Up. The marshalling yard on the Up side lasted into the 1960s, whilst the coal yard on the Down survived until the Miners' Strike in the 1980s.

[neilrh]

TonyMay: It's a conceptual "half", probably with a hill splitting the scenes. I envisage the hidden tracks running along the inside or outside of the scene2/3 tables, and those being free standing would allow easy access from the side below a raised scenic element. Must admit I am a little concerned running the 2<->3 transition behind scene 1 as that would likely be along the back wall, and though I was considering maybe a town street, with the tracks running inside the buildings - still that means scene 1 would be a limited depth to allow sufficient reach. I suppose I could dispense with that run being hidden and just have it as a high level track along the back of the main scene.

 

I will admit, there may be a possibility of negotiating a round the outside of the room deal, I'd have to incorporate a lift out section at the doorway, because I'm never going to get an ok for - you can just crawl under that bit dear. But then I could just go for maybe a 1' width pure scenery stretch, giving trains in view for a longer period. And a good selling point of storage under these scenic parts, as the only electrics would be the bus and drops from the track, so less need of under table access. And the wood additional track would not necessarily be much more costly considering the amount already needed.

 

 

Brian W: For scene 1 I was considering either a 4 track station OR a marshaling yard/junction. 2 tracks at each end would descend to the storage yard, with the other 2 ascending to the upper scenic areas. I'm not sure there would be any real world location to model directly, but the design is from what I consider as the functional necessity of the flow of traffic. Upper scenes being essentially simple through locations with some local interest would allow for (compressed) real world locations - and there are many of them to choose from.

 

 

But now as I consider things more, a full round the room idea is appealing, the benchwork can be narrower (which translates to cheaper and provide better window access for pesky things like cleaning them). Any low level storage yard access would not need to be forced into a limited distance, but can be moved to opposite sides of the room, using junctions with a more natural appearance. And less need for hidden tracks between scenes, as there is at least a modicum of sufficient running space between possible station/point of interest locations.

[The Stationmaster]

Have a look at Bridgend - only double track but a branch at each end and other useful features.

[neilrh]

So it's looking hopeful that a round the edge of the room is acceptable, with wifey and I using the center area for crafts and modeling. I'll have to incorporate a bridging section, so that there's no requirement to crawl under anything to get into the room, but that should be easy enough.

 

As for the plan itself, I'm still considering 3 major scenic sections, possibly up to 3ft in depth, but I won't need as much depth on the cross country sections between each of these scenes. I'd also be eliminating the plan to have a major hidden storage area, though that adds the requirement to include a depot, marshaling yard and carriage storage, in order that all rolling stock can be accommodated. Maybe I could include some "branch lines" to a couple of strategically placed off scene storage sections to give trains "somewhere else" to go. At least design requirements now don't involve a 4-track junction, so I can keep to a more typical 2 track main.

 

So I guess it's time to hit the books and come up with 3 interesting locations.

[jon_1066]

There could be an advantage in not going all around the room.  By only taking half you would have access to both sides of the section that runs across the room.  You could therefore make that 4ft wide (2ft reach from each side) which would give you much greater depth to the scene and allow perhaps more interesting scenics and railway infrastructure.

[neilrh]

One of the problems I'd considered with the split room option, is that I couldn't go too wide, as that section would include the crawl through, and I believe that tends to get more challenging as one ages. And having a 4' wide dual level lift out section would probably end up needing mechanical assistance for similar reasons. At least going around the room, the bridge across the entrance can be fairly light, hollow, well braced small box with track attached.

 

I looked up the Bridgend chart, and it appears to be a possible contender for inclusion, with what appears to be storage for freight and passenger stock. It will likely need to be scaled down somewhat, and I'll probably eliminate the east side branch, though I'd retain that branch platform as a 3rd main through track. Sadly I don't have a Felin Fran chart so I'm unable to assess it for suitability.

[The Stationmaster]

Signalbox diagrams (small scale and can't be enlarged) for Felin Fran East & West

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwm/S1857.htm

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwm/S1856.htm

[Fat Controller]

Signalbox diagrams (small scale and can't be enlarged) for Felin Fran East & West

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwm/S1857.htm

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwm/S1856.htm

Thanks for those, Mike. I think East outlasted West by some years, due to the presence of the coal depot and the junction for the INCO branch. Les Turner, who used to keep the model shop on Brynymor Road, was signalman there at one time.