Whitby/Esk Valley (disused parts)

[Derekstuart]

Hello all

 

I am looking for a little guidance in finding research material, if anyone could help. I am embarking on a modelling project of Whitby (P4) as far as New Bridge/ Prospect Hill  Lower Junction.

 

I know that technically this is not a disused line, (nearly) but the fairly extensive yards are long gone of course and I think the information I seek- if available- would be in one of the many published books relating to the 3 disused branches.

 

I have already scoured the internet and have well over 100 photo's of different eras. But I cannot find a few specific parts- namely the goods yard between the running lines and the Esk, specifically the East side of the GT Andrews goods shed and office (bombed in 1940) and the content between platform 4 and Endeavour Wharf.

 

I believe I have exhausted every conceivable photo' on the 'net (including some already suggested on this board in response to other questions). I know there are many people in this community who clearly know a fair bit about Whitby and I am hoping to tap their knowledge. I am quite happy to buy whatever books and DVD's might help me- but there are hundreds available and apart from the cost, the time would be extensive, so I am looking for any guidance anyone might have on which ones to go for. I have a sneaking suspicion that unless I can find someone who actually worked there, I am up a gum tree.

 

As a bit of background, my (now late) Father was a Darlington based driver who spent several years working in and out of Whitby. My first visit was the year before they demolished half the place- cameras and film were expensive in those days and we didn't take one on this camping holiday- deciding we would the following year. Of course, my Dad would have been able to answer these questions in incredible details (and as an aside the debate elsewhere on this forum about shunting with DMU's in the yard, I remember him telling me about it, so yes it did happen). I have not modeled for over 20 years and never in finescale. So I am spending a fair bit of time researching and brushing up on skills before I embark on this daunting project.

 

Many thanks for reading my post of novel-like proportions. Any advice or suggestions would be most gratefully received.

 

Derek

[beast66606]

I don't know if it has what you need but I always find Bellcode books to be a nice deviation from the norm, they have little snippets of interesting events to support the good photos.

They published two which included Whitby, Volume 18 and 19.

 

Google them for sources.

 

I have no connection other than a happy reader.

[Derekstuart]

Many thanks Beast 66606. I will try that. It is only when you ask questions such as mine that you realise just how much information is out there that you didn't even think of in the first place.

 

I have some light reading for holidays!

 

Cheers

Derek

[Lazerrail]

Hi Derek,

Many years ago I purchased from BR NE Region a Track-plan of Whitby Town Station, for a minimal cost. It arrived in the form of a long narrow Blue-print (rolled-up) and included the circular foundation layout of Larpool Viaduct as well as a separate plan of Prospect Hill Junction.

One advantage of it was that the original (dating from so long ago) had been drawn on Linen paper and so all of the earlier tracks could be easily distinguished from later amendments.

I passed this on to a colleague a couple of years ago - but I see no reason why you could not contact Rail-track to see if you can obtain a copy, especially with the recent developments at WT, it is most likely available in a digital format.

I have lots of 35mm photos of the EVL taken in the 1980's refurbished 101's era including the twice-weekly P-u-Goods and also the Sunday morning the S & T Dept came along and disconnected all the Points and Signals prior to the annihilation of the remaining Goods and Passenger services that had existed post Beeching.

They are all up in the loft - but I will dig them out and sort thru any that might be useful, to convert to digital.

One interesting point about the model you are researching is that the Signal Cabin at Bog Hall controlled Gates that led down to a Ford over the R. Esk. This gains the East-side at Spital Bridge (Google it, for images) so it must have been a public right-of-way category and both Town & BH Cabins lasted until the end, before 'one engine' only held sway.

In fact I have photo's of the interior of all the Cabins - certainly WT to Battersby Junction and Nunthorpe.

Again if anyone can get hold of Railway Modeller June 1980 check 'A Branchline for Modern Traction' with Ink pen on drawing-board film and my own photos (There is also a good article about kitting-out your house loft for a layout in this edition too)

So you are right to ask about disused parts of a line that is still in existence, because so much has changed since the last time it changed and the time before that and the time...

I hope this is of interest, Paul

[Derekstuart]

Hello Paul

Thanks for the info. I have tried NR, but all they have is 1/4 of the station from the stops South. I know that plans exist as I've seen extracts from an architects "station conservation" document from about 10 years ago. I believe that the originals (or good copies) live at NRM or Darlington, but so far I've not been able to confirm.

Out of curiosity, did your drawings list turnout types etc? I am told that there was a set sold (copy or original I'm not sure) that was a full engineers drawing showing how many ft/inch from X to Y and rodding/wire runs and ducts. But this has proven very much elusive.

I would appreciate seeing any photo's you have.  As for the ford. I remember my Dad telling me that the Esk at that point was a large mud flat and that there was a crossing there- having seen it post dredging, I assumed he was mistaken or on a wind up (I always wondered about the site of the turntable as well, which I remember my Dad showing me the outline on the ground of the loco shed, which conflicted with photo's of it being on the Esk bank at BH. Of course, I NOW know that this was the original table before the shed was expanded and it was moved to the carriage sidings- odd to think it was still visible (just 80 odd years later)- hence my uncertainty regarding his story of the ford).

As I've said elsewhere, when embarking on a project like this, you have to learn the disciplines of an archaeologist- taking in info from many sources- books, films, people on net forums and field visits. You also need to understand architecture to understand the way buildings were built back then and also about geology- you can't terraform realistically otherwise. Nothing proves the first point about research more than asking the information from people such as yourself. There's a HUGE amount of information out there.

Many, many thanks for your info. If you do find any photo's, I'd really love to see them- even if the track lifting is such a sad occasion, it would give clues to the missing 'black spots' in the data.

Hello Paul

Thanks for the info. I have tried NR, but all they have is 1/4 of the station from the stops South. I know that plans exist as I've seen extracts from an architects "station conservation" document from about 10 years ago. I believe that the originals (or good copies) live at NRM or Darlington, but so far I've not been able to confirm.

Out of curiosity, did your drawings list turnout types etc? I am told that there was a set sold (copy or original I'm not sure) that was a full engineers drawing showing how many ft/inch from X to Y and rodding/wire runs and ducts. But this has proven very much elusive.

I would appreciate seeing any photo's you have.  As for the ford. I remember my Dad telling me that the Esk at that point was a large mud flat and that there was a crossing there- having seen it post dredging, I assumed he was mistaken or on a wind up (I always wondered about the site of the turntable as well, which I remember my Dad showing me the outline on the ground of the loco shed, which conflicted with photo's of it being on the Esk bank at BH. Of course, I NOW know that this was the original table before the shed was expanded and it was moved to the carriage sidings- odd to think it was still visible (just 80 odd years later)- hence my uncertainty regarding his story of the ford).

As I've said elsewhere, when embarking on a project like this, you have to learn the disciplines of an archaeologist- taking in info from many sources- books, films, people on net forums and field visits. You also need to understand architecture to understand the way buildings were built back then and also about geology- you can't terraform realistically otherwise. Nothing proves the first point about research more than asking the information from people such as yourself. There's a HUGE amount of information out there.

Many, many thanks for your info. If you do find any photo's, I'd really love to see them- even if the track lifting is such a sad occasion, it would give clues to the missing 'black spots' in the data.

[Lazerrail]

Hi Stuart,

I am based in York and am due a visit to NRM Archives soon, for a fix of research (the last one I did was for someone who wanted info re the LBSC K Class Mogul - the drawings were ink pen and tinted and signed by L B Billinton in 1913/14 - just before WW1) so I will check out if they have anything. I will also try to contact the person I passed the track-plan to, since I can't recall if it had Point details on it.

I am also due to visit North Road Museum at Darlo for some loco details as well.

During the hot summer of 76 and a very low tide, the ford at Whitby could quite easily be discerned. There was a line of marker stones on either side and I got my Welly's on and crossed it. I think from recent photos, storm/spate/dredging has damaged it. But again I had a Large-scale Ordnance map which clearly showed it.

Finally, I have bought some plastic storage boxes from my local Range store and I am definitely getting stuff out of the loft, thus I will check thru the photos.

Paul

[Mike Storey]

Suggest, if you have not already, that you try asking Philip Benham, GM at the NYMR. He has written a very good book about the railway and may well have access to source records about Whitby.

[Steve Taylor]

I assume you have a copy of Ken Hoole's North-Eastern Branch Line Termini? BTW, if its helpful, I may have a copy of the scale elevations for Larpool Viaduct tucked away if you are proceeding that far from west.

[Derekstuart]

Hi Paul

 

Thanks. Any info would be appreciated. It is difficult for me to get up during the week to look- although if I find out that there is some useful info, I will book a holiday from work and go look.

 

Re: The ford, sorry my post didn't explain very well. I meant that I WAS uncertain at the time. However, I have seen early photo's as well as a pre-war OS map that shows it just how you describe it. When you see the photo' of the Esk PRE dredging, it makes a lot more sense. Though I must admit to never having gone to look on the East bank for the other side- I will do next time.

Mike,

Someone else has already suggested speaking to Mr Benham. But I suspect he's not the easiest chap to get hold of, being quite a busy bloke. I could try writing to him???

 

Steve,

I ordered a copy from an Amazon dealer- not received yet. I will try buying another copy as there's a few on Ebay. I had forgotten about that.

 

I would really like to include Larpool viaduct as it is such an important and distinctive part of the line and would provide a good 'scenic break' as well as allow the proper modelling of the Prospect Hill incline. But it would be another 12ft long and because of the size of the curve there would mean that the layout width would be excessive.... I'd have to be mad to include that amount of extra work, wouldn't I.....?



Wouldn't I?



Would I?

[Mike Storey]

 

Mike,

Someone else has already suggested speaking to Mr Benham. But I suspect he's not the easiest chap to get hold of, being quite a busy bloke. I could try writing to him???

 

 

 

Derek - This time of year he will only be preparing for the Santa Specials, so it's probably a good time. His office is right opposite Pickering Station, so you may find if you ring the station they can put you through. Or write - he was never a big user of email. He is very approachable - I used to work for him at Kings Cross, where he was Area Manager, many moons ago and we remained friends - and has an encyclopedic knowledge of the North Eastern.

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Mike

 

BTW do you mind me asking what sort of timeframe you and he worked at KX? I keep bumping into people who knew my Dad when he worked there.

 

I think a trip up North is in order- I might pop into see him if he will talk to me... if not then there's that ex Whitby wooden shed to photograph and if I can find any ash ballasted track left, some notes on colours

Edited November 29, 2014 by Derekstuart

[Steve Taylor]

re.... earlier

 

Oh I think you should

 

 

 

at least plan the ambition.

 

My own project based on Broomielaw is much simpler than Whitby, but scales out at about the same. And as it's P4, I know exactly where you are at. Never has plan twice, measure thrice, cut once seemed more appropriate? I'm doing prototype gradients too.

 

As an aside my late grandad was area telecoms superintendent covering Whitby and fondly recalled the box as one of his favourites. If truth be told (probably) as a Dale's lad the moors were too alike to home to be ignored - anyway he had a soft spot for that part of the world though oddly never answered the call of the NYMR, despite John Boyes' questions.

 

I'd thought myself of doing Prospect Hill but got caught up in a National Service era Stainmore saga. If you fancy PH as a tester layout it is very do-able being largely straight. It sounded as though you had the space anyway.

 

Advice? Err TEMPLOT   Not only does it make templates but in the design and research process you learn so much too: get yourself a copy of the PW engineers handbook for track deign and the S&T equivalent for "plumbing in" the signalling.

 

If I get some peace tomorrow, I'll investigate the storage dept. and see if the Larpool drawings are a figment of my deteriorating memory or something more useful.

 

PS. I have, over the last few years, been involved with the GCR. The 60' turntable they installed at Quorn (Ex-York) had outrigger assemblies not visually dissimilar to that seen at Whitby adjoining the carriage sidings.

[Mike Storey]

Thanks Mike

 

BTW do you mind me asking what sort of timeframe you and he worked at KX? I keep bumping into people who knew my Dad when he worked there.

 

I think a trip up North is in order- I might pop into see him if he will talk to me... if not then there's that ex Whitby wooden shed to photograph and if I can find any ash ballasted track left, some notes on colours

 

We were at KGX in the mid to late 80's and then I worked for him again in York around 93 to 94? Something like that.

[Derekstuart]

Mike, did you know my Dad, Lou Taylor? He was a Traction Inspector, retiring in 1994 after working his way up from grease monkey/ cleaner in the (then) newly Nationalised BR at Darlington, then to Stratford and onto Kings Cross late 70's or early 80's.

[Mike Storey]

Mike, did you know my Dad, Lou Taylor? He was a Traction Inspector, retiring in 1994 after working his way up from grease monkey/ cleaner in the (then) newly Nationalised BR at Darlington, then to Stratford and onto Kings Cross late 70's or early 80's.

 

Derek, regret no. I might have come across him in the corridors in the West Side offices (or on the platforms or trains) without knowing who he was, as we shared the same floor as the signing on point (until it was moved to the East Side), but I didn't have much to do with the drivers side of things, just the senior conductors, as the Guards' Inspectors reported to me. There were hundreds of people there! Philip might well remember him though, as obviously they would have reported to him via the Driver Manager.

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Mike. I know there were many people working there and not everyone knew everyone, especially in between departments.

 

I can still remember those offices so well. Initially Dad was overlooking platform 8 (I think just South of the footbridge, but not 100% on that) before moving over to look over those dull spam cans of 9,10,11.

 

I know they refurbished the offices a bit after privatisation. I hope they didn't destroy the character of the place in the process. In all the 100's of visits I've had to KX, I never got to see any of the East side offices- I don't know if the East side offices were in use at the time? Certainly seemed very quiet..

On the subject of KX-E. That new platform '0'. I have read two different accounts of this- one that there was a platform there already, which had been dis-used for years (also heard a variant that it was designed for, but never used at all), and the second account is that it was a major engineering exercise to substantially modify the East side to accomodate this brand new platform. I think perhaps the latter is more likely and the former is someone being confused with the Southbound entry onto the MWL???

[Derekstuart]

Hello Steve

 

I think that it would be the icing on the cake to include it- it has to be done! But first I have to bake the cake.

Have you done much previously in P4? I've never touched it and am learning the easy way (a brick layer analogy: study the brick, watch other brick layers. Lay half a dozen bricks. Study result, build a row, study result. Try different brick bonds. Study. Build a small wall, study. Large wall, study, extension, study then build a whole house and hopefully no need to study).

When you say "Broomielaw", I take it that you mean in Glasgow? 

I did think about PH. But my "practice" layout needs to be basically a small, compact version of Whitby so that I can trial all the bits that I will need for the main layout. PH has that very interesting box of course, but it wouldn't really help me prepare for the main task ahead... though if I was doing Larpool later on.....

I will take a trip up to the GCR at some point. I've only been there once before (having no interest in railways since the mid/late 90s). I know Whitby had a 50ft table, but as you say it will be close enough in design to prove useful to study. I am told that the rail for the table is the very old stuff scavenged from the former Goathland deviation route. Should be fun to replicate. Not.

 

re.... earlier

 

Oh I think you should

 

 

 

at least plan the ambition.

 

My own project based on Broomielaw is much simpler than Whitby, but scales out at about the same. And as it's P4, I know exactly where you are at. Never has plan twice, measure thrice, cut once seemed more appropriate? I'm doing prototype gradients too.

 

As an aside my late grandad was area telecoms superintendent covering Whitby and fondly recalled the box as one of his favourites. If truth be told (probably) as a Dale's lad the moors were too alike to home to be ignored - anyway he had a soft spot for that part of the world though oddly never answered the call of the NYMR, despite John Boyes' questions.

 

I'd thought myself of doing Prospect Hill but got caught up in a National Service era Stainmore saga. If you fancy PH as a tester layout it is very do-able being largely straight. It sounded as though you had the space anyway.

 

Advice? Err TEMPLOT   Not only does it make templates but in the design and research process you learn so much too: get yourself a copy of the PW engineers handbook for track deign and the S&T equivalent for "plumbing in" the signalling.

 

If I get some peace tomorrow, I'll investigate the storage dept. and see if the Larpool drawings are a figment of my deteriorating memory or something more useful.

 

PS. I have, over the last few years, been involved with the GCR. The 60' turntable they installed at Quorn (Ex-York) had outrigger assemblies not visually dissimilar to that seen at Whitby adjoining the carriage sidings.

[Mike Storey]

Thanks Mike. I know there were many people working there and not everyone knew everyone, especially in between departments.

 

I can still remember those offices so well. Initially Dad was overlooking platform 8 (I think just South of the footbridge, but not 100% on that) before moving over to look over those dull spam cans of 9,10,11.

 

I know they refurbished the offices a bit after privatisation. I hope they didn't destroy the character of the place in the process. In all the 100's of visits I've had to KX, I never got to see any of the East side offices- I don't know if the East side offices were in use at the time? Certainly seemed very quiet..

 

On the subject of KX-E. That new platform '0'. I have read two different accounts of this- one that there was a platform there already, which had been dis-used for years (also heard a variant that it was designed for, but never used at all), and the second account is that it was a major engineering exercise to substantially modify the East side to accomodate this brand new platform. I think perhaps the latter is more likely and the former is someone being confused with the Southbound entry onto the MWL???

 

Hi Derek. to answer:

 

Not sure where your Dad would have been originally, but I do remember the driver management team had offices overlooking the suburban (9-11) when I was there. We in passenger management, overlooked 8, with the station control room next to us, and then the old divisional control and then train crew signing on point north of us. We were all north of the footbridge. Only the Area Manager (Philip) and the Operations Manager (David ?, can;t remember his surname, but he called everyone "Basil", except Philip, because he could never remember names) were south of the footbridge on 1st floor, but I can't recall who was on the 2nd floor above them. Beyond them was the bombed bit (ex-gymnasium) which was only restored with the recent rebuild.

 

That part of the West Side offices was evacuated during the re-build and I don't know what or who is in them now. The GNER offices were placed in the southern end of the West Side offices (nearest the Euston Road), the other side of the bombed section (indeed, Christopher Garnett took possession of my old office, which I had inherited when we were kicked out of the other end, and which had the "Royal Balcony" which was by then exclusively inhabited by pigeons, As Chris lived in Putney, he did most of his work at the KX end rather than York). Network SouthEast and Railtrack/NR took over the rest of the West Side until the redevelopment. "They" won't have been allowed to destroy the character since then, as the whole station is Grade 2* listed, but it did need an awful lot of improvement to make it suitable for modern working conditions. It was in reality, an awful place to work.

 

East Side was largely occupied by the Property Board, BR Architects dept and other outcasts from the BRB originally. Train crew operations moved in before Platform 0, and GNER took over the southern half in the 90's. What has happened since I do not know.

 

Platform 0 was originally the cab road and was never a platform. That would have been impossible previously because of the approach to the York Road southbound platform and the track down into the Widened Lines to Moorgate. The track bed into Platform 0 uses part of this formation. The modification to the East Side offices to accommodate platform 0 were extensive, primarily due to the OLE clearances necessary. The "mezzanine" level, which is where the BR architects dept had been and later, some of the train crew accommodation and one end of the new signing-on point, was the subject of considerable debate and the scheme pivoted around it. The final solution found a way to accommodate both with substantial changes but I cannot remember the detail. This was a deal-breaker but the more exciting part of the discussions surrounded the desire to re-open the 3rd tunnel. In the end, we didn't. A shame, but probably the right business case decision, at the time, as the revised track layout, signalling changes and the extra platform, actually provided sufficient extra capacity for the foreseeable future (given that Thameslink plans of the time would eventually remove a significant number of paths from Gasworks tunnels in both peaks. Bizarrely, the thing that nearly killed Platform 0, was the relatively new ruling over what could be behind the buffer stops, and what kind of buffer stops were compliant. It was decided that the ruling covered primarily passenger safety, so that the station control point could stay where it was. But the original stated requirement for the friction-type stops would have only allowed an 8/9 car train length to be accommodated, not much use for a 2+9 225 set. A solution was found, involving both ends of the track and approach control, and then by posting acceptable non-compliances!

[Derekstuart]

Thanks for that Mike.

 

I dare say that the offices were awful places to work in reality. But to me back then I spent most of my school holidays wandering in and out of them- and jumping trains (PT pass of course) to Finsbury Park or Peterborough etc.. and occasionally "volunteering" to take documents to Hornsey or Bounds'. (terrible job... but someone had to do it).

 

So to me, it was a great place to spend time. But I suppose I didn't have to stay there 52 weeks of the year.

 

As for platform 0- of course, I remember (vaguely) the roadway and concourse part there now that you explain it.

 

Yet oddly in all those years, it was only some time later when my Dad was retiring and I went down to help clear his office that I saw the west yard area (motorail platforms etc). I had been down to the West (Northbound?) Moorgate tunnel, which in those days was very badly blocked up (ahem) and the former platforms there, but I never paid much attention to the rest of the area.

Ah, the memories....

[R Marshall]

If other sources don't give you what you need, the North Eastern Railway Association (NERA) has started to publish inexpensive booklets of line diagrams. I've got the booklet for the Durham Coast line and I've seen the Stainmore route version. The booklets are good for details of structures, signalling, mileposts and gradients, but don't attempt to reflect track geometry, or curvature.

[Ken 63388]

I'm afraid I've only just noticed this topic. Anyway I've attached a couple of (poor quality unfortunately) photos of the goods' yard at Whitby which were taken in late December 1973. 

 

Ken

[russ p]

Apparently the wagons were often shunted by Tom Robertson the station master with a DMU while the crew were getting fish and chips or more likely in the pub!

Even into the 90s we had jobs especially on sundays where you got several hours there.

If I was on one of the Sunday jobs used to take my then girlfriend and have an afternoon out. 

Mind she had an odd fear of metal bridges which I forgot and the first time she saw the the girder bridge in Arncliffe woods near glaisdale from the cab of a 143 she let out a blood curdling scream and ran in the train complete with HV vest .

God knows what the passengers thought I bet half thought she was the driver. 

I nearly dropped the DSD laughing but the train went very quiet she came back in bright red