GSWR Manson 240 class request

[Londontram]

Any GSWR fans on here if there is has any body got any line drawings, plans or pictures of the Manson 240 class 4-4-0 in original unrebuilt form they could scan for me so I can have a look for a feasibility study, thanks Steve

[flubrush]

Any GSWR fans on here if there is has any body got any line drawings, plans or pictures of the Mason 240 class 4-4-0 in original unrebuilt form they could scan for me so I can have a look for a feasibility study, thanks Steve

 

Manson rather than Mason?

 

Jim

[pH]

By 'in original unrebuilt form', I'm assuming you mean before Whitelegg rebuilt them. If so, there are a couple of pictures here:

 

http://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com/Rail/Steam/Glasgow/i-SSKZftB/A

http://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com/Rail/Steam/Glasgow/i-3xQSmMH/A

 

There are also two pictures of 240 class engines in unrebuilt form in 'Locomotives Illustrated 117 - G&SWR and HR 4-4-0s', including a very clear broadside view.

 

(I presume you've looked at David L. Smith's "Locomotives of the Glasgow and South Western Railway", which contains basic dimensions for the class, but no pictures.)

[Londontram]

Manson rather than Mason?

 

Jim

WHOOPS you got me Jim.

 

   Its been edited

[Londontram]

By 'in original unrebuilt form', I'm assuming you mean before Whitelegg rebuilt them. If so, there are a couple of pictures here:

 

http://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com/Rail/Steam/Glasgow/i-SSKZftB/A

http://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com/Rail/Steam/Glasgow/i-3xQSmMH/A

 

There are also two pictures of 240 class engines in unrebuilt form in 'Locomotives Illustrated 117 - G&SWR and HR 4-4-0s', including a very clear broadside view.

 

(I presume you've looked at David L. Smith's "Locomotives of the Glasgow and South Western Railway", which contains basic dimensions for the class, but no pictures.)

Thanks pH yes I have seen these not knowing anything much about this class I was trying at this stage to familiarities my self with the locos and was trying to confirm the differences for example the picture previous to the first one you posted states 14246 as being a rebuilt locomotive so I presume the cab stile shown was a feature of the rebuilding along with other details but were the 8 wheel tenders just used with the rebuilt locos. As I said its just playing around with ideas at the moment a sort of thinking aloud exercise if I wanted to take it further I would take your advice and get the book and try to source the magazine you quoted. Thanks for the help and any more would be appreciated for example have you got a scan of the article in the Locomotive Illustrated or could you give me the basic dimensions please. Steve

[souwest]

Try contacting Ian@stenochs through here, or the G&SWRA website.

[Graham Hughes]

Hello Steve,

 

I have a copy of the LMS Northern Division loco diagram book which has the LMS diagram. I don't know how well it would scan, but to be honest it is so basic that you could draw it out yourself from the basic dimensions in a few minutes. It would not be enough to build a model by itself. You would do better with the Glasgow and South Western Railway Association's drawing for the 8 Class. As David L. Smith describes the 240 Class in the book mentioned above as "identical in all respects save for a higher cab, had a new type of boiler, 7 1/2" larger in diameter and pitched 9" higher". He goes on to say that the "frames,motion and tender were unchanged from the 8 Class". Five of the 8 Cass were subsequently rebuilt with the larger boiler. Incidentally the book does have a photo of a 240 with 8 wheeled tender but the photos do tend to be somewhat removed from the description in that book and the photo is in the previous chapter. 

There were only two of the 8 wheel tenders, used on the locos on "The Diner" (The Joint Stock dining car train from St. Pancras to Glasgow) and these came off the 8 Class locos when the 240s were introduced. All the other 240s had 6 wheel tenders. The GSWRA Loco drawing is ref L5 and the tender ref T5 (although I don't know if that is the 6 or 8 wheel type.) Another good book that might Help is Essery and Jenkinson's An Illusrated History of LMS Locomotives Vol 3 as that has several pictures of both classes so you can see the differences and similarities. Although depending on the period you wish to model it the rebuildings that these photos represent may or may not be helpful.  

[Graham Hughes]

 could you give me the basic dimensions please. Steve

Boiler diameter 4 ft 9 1/4 in

Pitch 8 ft 3 in

 

Wheels:

Bogie 3 ft 7 1/2 in

Coupled 6 ft 9 1/2 in

Tender 3 ft 10 1/2 in

 

Wheelbase:

Engine: 5 ft 6 in + 7 ft 5 in + 8 ft 9 in

Tender: 6 ft 0 in + 6 ft 0 in

Total e/t 42 ft 3 1/2 in

 

Length over buffers 50 ft 10 1/4 in

[pH]

Thanks pH yes I have seen these not knowing anything much about this class I was trying at this stage to familiarities my self with the locos and was trying to confirm the differences for example the picture previous to the first one you posted states 14246 as being a rebuilt locomotive so I presume the cab stile shown was a feature of the rebuilding along with other details but were the 8 wheel tenders just used with the rebuilt locos. As I said its just playing around with ideas at the moment a sort of thinking aloud exercise if I wanted to take it further I would take your advice and get the book and try to source the magazine you quoted. Thanks for the help and any more would be appreciated for example have you got a scan of the article in the Locomotive Illustrated or could you give me the basic dimensions please. Steve

The basic dimensions are as given by Graham above. The tender wheelbase and overall dimensions are, quite obviously, for the 6-wheel tenders.

 

Again as Graham says, there were only two 8-wheel tenders. They ran behind different engines, both rebuilt and non-rebuilt, at different times.

 

There were two rebuildings that affected the 240 class. The only differences between the 240 class and the earlier 8 class were the size and pitch of the boiler, and the height of the cab resulting from this. Five members of the 8 class were rebuilt with 240 class boilers and cabs, and so became identical to the 240s. The more extensive rebuilding affected only two 240 class engines, and was done under Whitelegg. The major change was the fitting of a boiler from Whitelegg's new range of standard boilers. There were also cosmetic changes - the cab which you've noticed and the smokebox door being the most obvious. The rebuilt 240s were identical to the 8 class engines rebuilt in the same way. There was also a single engine built new to this modified design - I don't know if that was counted as an 8 class or a 240 class. This rebuilding was a disaster.

 

Thanks to Graham for pointing out the picture of the 240 class engine in 'Locomotives of the Glasgow and South Western Railway'. As he says, it's in a different chapter from the description of the class, and I'd missed it. Also, I would agree with his recommendation of the Essery and Jenkinson book for a couple of nice photographs of original 240 class engines, of 240 and 8 class rebuilds and of the single new engine to the rebuilt design.

[ian@stenochs]

Hi London tram,

 

I have just come back onto rm webb after a while away and note your appeal for info on the G&SWR 240 class.  Coincidence or what but I have just started to build one of these locomotives in Scale 7 to add to my collection of Sou West engines.  I see that others have given you some of the history and details but I can add a bit more.

 

Unfortunately there does not seem to be a general arrangement drawing in circulation, not that I have found anyway, but the 240s were basically the 8 class with a large boiler and cab to match.  There is a GA of the 8 and I have a copy so frames and motion are quite easy to model from that.  Willie Stewart did a modellers drawing based on the 8 with 240 modifications from photographs and the weight diagram.  It is a very good drawing and knowing Willies work as accurate as he could make it. It is drawn as built with the original valve gear and horizontal reach rod.  Most were altered by Whitelegg and are recognisable by the reach rod passing behind the splasher.  It does show the extended cab side handrail which the class got quite early on due to the precarious position the crew found themselves in with a high footplate and low cab cut out.  I have heard it said that a few drivers felt quite insecure leaning out and there may even have been a case of the fireman falling out when the engine lurched!

 

When built the class had the standard 2500 gal tender but when on the 'Diner' they transferred the 8 wheeled tenders from the 8 class which were built for that specific duty. Only 2 were built and they were moved onto the 18 class which was a development of the 240s, In LMS days the tenders were still behind 18 class locos.

 

However for my build I will be using the 8 class GA  with Willie Stewarts drawing and quite a lot of photographs for detailing.  I have already built most of the tender, I always make the tender first as I don't like making tenders and I like them out of the way, for details I used Andy Munros drawing which was published in a Sou West Journal about 2 issues ago. The drawing was done from photos and a weight diagram plus information on the GNSR tenders which Manson built before he moved to the G&SWR.

 

Copies of the drawings, but not the GAs, are available from G&SWRA, I hold the stock so can supply.

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian

[phil_sutters]

By 'in original unrebuilt form', I'm assuming you mean before Whitelegg rebuilt them. If so, there are a couple of pictures here:

 

http://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com/Rail/Steam/Glasgow/i-SSKZftB/A

http://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com/Rail/Steam/Glasgow/i-3xQSmMH/A

 

There are also two pictures of 240 class engines in unrebuilt form in 'Locomotives Illustrated 117 - G&SWR and HR 4-4-0s', including a very clear broadside view.

 

(I presume you've looked at David L. Smith's "Locomotives of the Glasgow and South Western Railway", which contains basic dimensions for the class, but no pictures.)

There is a photo of the other side of 14258 on the turntable at Dumfries, in May 1927, in J.E.Kite's Vintage Album 1850 - 1925

[ian@stenochs]

Hi All,

 

Since my last post I have been making progress with my model of the 240 class.   She will be No 241 as running circa 1906 and as you can see has the 8 wheeled semi bogie tender which was used on the locos which ran the 'Diner' 

 

 

At the moment i am working on the inside motion.  You cannot see it in this picture but the slidebars and crossheads are already fitted and I am making the connecting and excentric rods at the moment.  The tender is almost complete except for the brake gear and wheels.  The tender will piggy back on the loco to increase adhesion with the bogie going along for the ride.

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.