dharma66 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Nearly two years ago I started looking at the possibility of building a 2FS layout. I intended it to be a very long term project, as I don't have much: space; budget; or, most importantly experience In fact, in railway modelling terms, my experience is zero. In general modelling, it's not too bad, and I'm hoping I can translate some skills (I've worked on scenic modelling for wargames, and worked with etch for scale modelling)... However, I hadn't thought that I would be going quite as slowly as I have been...In fact, two years on, and I still have absolutely nothing to show for it. There are two reasons. The garage space I freed up for work space and layout space was quickly occupied by a chest freezer and tumble drier. The job I was in kept me busy for more than 12 hours a day on weekdays, and at least 4 hours each day at weekend, often much, much more. Two things have happened, now, though: I've cleared more garage space I've changed job, and now work a regular 8-4, 5 days a week (oh the bliss ) So I'm again looking to make a start. And this time, I at least have bought some baseboard for a test track! I've also bough a white metal kit of a Hughes railmotor, and managed to get a correct donor for a chassis from 'tinternet (two, actually). Happily, these did run on the line I want to model. I'm, planning on modelling Middleton Station with the goods and mineral yards on the Middleton Branch of the L&YR. In order to give myself a chance at getting some moving parts (trains and stuff) without having to scratch build absolutely everything, I'm aiming at 'just' post-grouping,1923/4/5 (I don't know...maybe I still will need to scratch build everything - but I *think* there are a couple of LMS kits, as well as the railmotor?). I have an old map (from Old Maps) that shows the area from a 1922 survey, and as far as I can tell from local records, nothing really changed for quite a few years after that. In the first instance, it will be just the station, and the yard sidings, with the branch lines running into a fictitious tunnel into the fiddle yard. Maybe one day I could then extend further along the branch. However, with the anticipated rate of progress, that could be decades away... My plans are something like the following: Resume my previously aborted foray into Templot to figure out how to use it most effectively Rejoin the 2mm Association, and the L&YR Society Re-read the association book 'Track' Try to find out a bit more detail about L&YR permanent way details Re-read the association book 'Track' Try to find all the books I bought 2 years ago that seem to have gone missing (I suspect SWMBO may have made a trip to Oxfam ) Re-read the association book 'Track' Attend the model show at Poynton in December, talk to the people on the Association stand, pick up a starter pack or two, and maybe some other track bits Build the starter pack, and, maybe, make a tiny little diorama for it Re-read the association book 'Track' (you get the idea) Have a go at EasiTrack and PCB sleepers to see which I prefer Build a test loop, including a couple of hand built turn outs from Templot plans Keep rebuilding the turnouts until the wagon from the starter kit runs through them smoothly Convert a loco or two with 2mm Association wheels Make the test loop into a more complete circuit layout, in order to practice some of the track construction skills required (the layout I'm planning has curved crossings and relatively complex turnouts (there's a technical name I can't recall - where there are three lines running out, but its not really a three-way point, but kind of two overlapping points?)) Build the Hughes railmotor (this may come sooner due to over enthusiasm) In parallel, keep working on Templot until I have a layout plan I'm happy with, and experts (you guys) think will work Work out the logistical details (point control, construction techniques etc etc) Start building the layout and stock Sit back and watch the trains I don't expect to get to point 15 for at least another 12 months, maybe more. And it may be that I spend 12 months fussing with the test loop until I feel ready to commit to the 'proper' layout at step 19. Step 20 I may have to write into my "last will and testament" for someone else to do . So, this is kind of a 'bare your soul, 'cards on the table' kind of post, as now, having come clean about it, I'll hopefully feel some kind of obligation to live up to expectations. And, of course, this is also a warning to you all to expect lots and lots of really, really dumb questions from someone who is daft enough to attempt a 2FS layout of a long demolished station populated largely by pre-grouping stock - as his very ever model railway . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sykes Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Good luck with your project, at least you have a clear idea of what you want to do which is more than I can say! Can I suggest that the rail motor as a first build might be a bit challenging, with the Walschaerts valve gear? Nigel Hunt does an etched chassis for the GEM Lanky saddle tank kit and also a complete etched kit for the radial tank. I would think the saddle tank chassis would be a more straightforward starting option. Nigel's contact details are in the Association Yearbook which you probably have a copy of. There are no dumb questions, only ones you don't know the answer to. There are quite a few 2FS modellers here so someone should be able to help. It would probably be worthwhile finding out where your nearest area group meets as they can also be good sources of help and advice. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Another source worth looking at is the BR/OPC track plans, which were scanned a number of years ago. When OPC went under, the drawings on microfich were taken back into the NRM. The catalogue is here: http://www.nrm.org.uk/~/media/Files/NRM/PDF/archiveslists2012/railwaycompanyworks/Oxford%20Publishing%20Company%20drawing%20list%20track%20plans.pdf and therte are 4 drawings for Middleton. As I know pretty close to nothing about the L&YR, I have no idea if they are going to be any use. You can order them sight unseen from the NRM, either as pronts of scans, but be warned, the OPC lists are know to have errors and mis-descriptions---I've found a few myself over the years, and the NRM simply exracts the fiche and sends them to be copied---they dont't check for the content being as per the description: If you can get there, a visit is better. The National Archives in Kew has the railway company records and government files. A search for Middleton restricted to RAIL (pre nationalisation), AN (post nationalisation) and MT 6 (BoT inspections, accidents reports etc gives: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?name=Search&_aq=middleton&_ep=&_or1=&_or2=&_or3=&_nq1=&_nq2=&_nq3=&_cr1=RAIL&_cr2=AN&_cr3=MT+6&_dss=range&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=&_ro=any&_rd=&_rsd=&_red=&_st=adv&_rv= A lot of them are obviously not relevant, but some might be. MT 6 can be particularly useful, as an inspection report often contains maps, and these are often of the "before and after" type with alterations shewn in red over the original tracing. Again, a visit is better, but I might be able to have a look if you sort out the most relevant ones next time I'm there, which won't be for a week or so. Contact me off-list. Mark A Edited to include link. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 In addition to Steve's comments, I'd suggest getting a simple and reliable test loco. Just needs to be about the "right size". The new Farish Jinty strikes me as the obvious one; its easy to convert (new 2mm conversion kit available) and will be running in a few hours. There's nothing like being able to run something to help with the long trials of getting scratch built complicated mechanisms to work. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Many thanks for the replies! @Steve, whilst (happily), I've found my books, I haven't as yet found the yearbook I had from a couple of years ago. I sent off my Association application yesterday, so when the yearbook arrives, I think I'll look up Nigel Hunt. I like the idea of a simple first (few) builds @Mark, that's really great information! I'll probably order those 4 from the NRM, just to see what they contain. I have also been looking through the National Archive website, but I haven't really figured out yet what it's telling me. I'm guessing the references I see (things like A14/04/123) are a reference to some document that is archived. Most of those concerning the L&YR are marked as 'held in Manchester, not the national archive', so at some point, I'll pop inot the Manchester Archive and see if I can get a librarian to show me how to work the system. @Nigel, That sounds like a very good idea as well. Many thanks all, some great ideas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 [...] 15. Make the test loop into a more complete circuit layout, in order to practice some of the track construction skills required (the layout I'm planning has curved crossings and relatively complex turnouts (there's a technical name I can't recall - where there are three lines running out, but its not really a three-way point, but kind of two overlapping points?)) [...] This should be a "tandem" point; I have the Templot plan for a very small layout which contains two points in the tandem configuration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 That's pretty much exactly it, Valentin! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Many thanks for the replies! @Steve, whilst (happily), I've found my books, I haven't as yet found the yearbook I had from a couple of years ago. I sent off my Association application yesterday, so when the yearbook arrives, I think I'll look up Nigel Hunt. I like the idea of a simple first (few) builds @Mark, that's really great information! I'll probably order those 4 from the NRM, just to see what they contain. I have also been looking through the National Archive website, but I haven't really figured out yet what it's telling me. I'm guessing the references I see (things like A14/04/123) are a reference to some document that is archived. Most of those concerning the L&YR are marked as 'held in Manchester, not the national archive', so at some point, I'll pop inot the Manchester Archive and see if I can get a librarian to show me how to work the system. @Nigel, That sounds like a very good idea as well. Many thanks all, some great ideas. The National Archive catalogue will search not only TNA records, but those of many other archives, which is probably where all the Manchester links are coming from. The history of records is that shortly after BR was established, they formed a library and all previous company records went into that. When BR decided it could no longer fund this, the records went to the PRO and NRM. The original intention was that the PRO (as it was then) would get everything, but they saw some of the drawings and took fright at this. So, a split was arranged. The PRO got all the managerial/administrative stuff and the NRM the technical stuff. It's not quite as clear-cut as that, but that was the intention. The PRO catalogued all their stuff under a fairly logical system: Department, e.g. RAIL, Class, e.g. 254 GWR Locomotive data, and piece, e.g. a single document such as 1 which is a book of GWR photographs from 1913. Occasionally there is a sub Piece, e.g. MT 6/14/55. MT is the other main source of railway information at Kew and is the government (BoT and successors) reports. This means that the actual document is numbered 55 in box 14. There was a second clear-out in BR days a few years later, and another load of documents was archived. The PRO got all of them, with the pre-nationalisation stuff mostly numbered in RAIL 1000 and up, and the BR stuf in AN. This is catalogued, but not as well. As works closed, the remaining records often went to local archives, which is probably where Manchester comes into the picture, although most County Archives will have at least some railway material. The material at York (NRM) was basically just left in an unsorted heap until quite recently. A joint venture with OPC lead to some of the drawings and many of the photographs being catalogued and made available, and after OPC folded, this was brought back into the NRM. Since the Search Engine opened, the NRM had much more space for volunteer indexing, and the drawings are finally being catalogued properly, although completion is some time off. List, as they become available, are on the NRM website as pdfs. The situation can be the same in County Archives, although I believe Manchester has a better record than most. For example, until recently, the Swindon and Wilts Archive had the records donated after the closure of Swindon Works, but they were uncatalogued, and thus useless. Forrtunately, an ex-BR man, on retirement, took on the job, and they're now available. Mark A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2014 If you can attend the local area group the advise and help will be invaluable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2014 I'd agree with both Steve and Nigel. Build a length of track and a point - simple rail and PCB is the simplest - and get a loco running. Nigel's suggestion of the new Association Farish Jinty conversion is your best bet - its as close to drop in wheels as we are likely to get. The Jinty is fine for your area and period and could be followed up with Nigel's L&Y saddle tank which is again perfect. Nigel's kits are well designed, pretty straightforward to put together and Nigel offers superb support for anyone building them. As regards research, the Britain from above site is wonderful. Is this the Middleton yard you are referring to? http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw016454?search=middleton&ref=13 Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Wow! It sure is the Middleton I'm talking about! I'd never heard of Britain From Above! And that photo is 1926, right in the time period I want to model. Very interesting to see how many wagons are in the mineral yard at the far end. The closer yard is largely for cotton coming into and out of the mills, which was the prime driver the line being laid. The station is between the two yards. That yard used to bring coal from the mine heads at Swinton to keep the coal fires burning in Middleton. In fact, the mines from the Swinton heads extend right under the whole of Middleton, especially an area just off that picture to the bottom, which is called Alkrington, and where I spent the first 30 years of my life! Alkrington has some pretty bad subsidence from the mines, with several areas left undeveloped even now, and sinkage still occurring. In fact, two bungalows that are 400 yards from my parents house have just had to be demolished due to extreme subsidence, and the investigations into what's going on underneath are just beginning. Quite a few of the buildings in the photo are still standing, though there have also been lots of other changes. The entire branch was scrapped by Beeching, though, the station area is now a car park for industrial and commercial units that occupy the whole of the yard area. The branch line embankments are just about still detectable and walkable (as long as the holder of the small holding allows it!), but other than a few giveaway slopes and over engineered under bridges for crossing roads, there really nothing to indicate there wS ever ā railway. Even the Railway pub, just outside the yard, shut down about 10 years ago. Thanks for the link, it's really, really great to see. And given ive received the same advice several times, I am going to follow it, I'll start with a short length of straight, and get it electirified, and slowly extend it into a test loop with a couple of turnouts, and I'll look into the Jinty conversion. Many thanks to every one, bagfulls of great info already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Oh, and out of interest... See the church by the big shed? The road running away from the church, towards camera is in an area of old terraces that still stand, and that road is called Hornby Street Sadly, there is no Dapol Avenue Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2014 Wow! It sure is the Middleton I'm talking about! I'd never heard of Britain From Above! And that photo is 1926, right in the time period I want to model. Very interesting to see how many wagons are in the mineral yard at the far end. The closer yard is largely for cotton coming into and out of the mills, which was the prime driver the line being laid. The station is between the two yards. Its worth registering with Britain from Above which is part of English Heritage - its free but allows you to search the site, zoom in on images and even download and print low resolution copies of the images for personal use. I only did a quick search but there are several pictures of Middleton which include the railway from various angles. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branwell Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 If you can attend the local area group the advise and help will be invaluable That's very good advice. I joined mine about a year go and it's really encouraged me. I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that with your L&Y bent and your references to popping into the Manchester archives, you're not too far from the Rainy City? In which case, you're not too far from the Pennine Area Group - we meet the second Saturday of every month at Keighley MRC's clubrooms and are currently working on a model of Lightcliffe - see http://pennine2mm.blogspot.co.uk/ for details. Pop along and see us if you feel so inclined. Regards, David V Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Thanks David, I definitely feel inclined, but I'm very, very unlikely to ever get time on a Saturday, unfortunately Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Can I just confirm... Is the Association Jinty conversion being referred to item 3-650? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branwell Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Thanks David, I definitely feel inclined, but I'm very, very unlikely to ever get time on a Saturday, unfortunately Shame ... but if ever you do, you know where we are! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Can I just confirm... Is the Association Jinty conversion being referred to item 3-650? Nope, it is 3-700 (Jinty conversion kit to convert Graham Farish Jinty to 2FS) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Oops. Glad I checked! Receiving the yearbook has convinced me I need new glasses before is start fiddling with tiny bits and pieces...I can barely read the shop listings! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Its worth registering with Britain from Above which is part of English Heritage - its free but allows you to search the site, zoom in on images and even download and print low resolution copies of the images for personal use. I only did a quick search but there are several pictures of Middleton which include the railway from various angles. Jerry There are aerial photgraphs from the Aerofilms and RAF post-war survey for England in the National Heritage collection (held at Swindon). You would be able to purchase higher resolution copies from them. They have other photographic records as well---worth checking them out. The Welsh ones are in the National Library of Wales, and the one I got from them for Cockett was invaluable. I presume the Library of Scotland has the Scottish ones, but I've never asked. Mark A Edited because I cannot spell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted October 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2014 There are aerial photgraphs from the Aerofilms and RAF post-war survey for England in the National Heritage collection (held at Swindon). You would be able to purchase higher resolution copies from them. They have other photographic records as well---worth checking them out. The Welsh ones are in the National Library of Wales, and the one I got from them for Cockett was invaluable. I presume the Library of Scotland has the Scottish ones, but I've never asked. Mark A Edited because I cannot spell The Britain from Above collection is the National Heritage Collection that is held at Swindon - they are one and the same. There is an article on the Britain from Above project and the services it provides to modellers and historians by the project manager, Charlotte Hill, in the next MRJ, 235, due at the end of November. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 The Britain from Above collection is the National Heritage Collection that is held at Swindon - they are one and the same. There is an article on the Britain from Above project and the services it provides to modellers and historians by the project manager, Charlotte Hill, in the next MRJ, 235, due at the end of November. Jerry Jerry, thanks for the amplifcation: I can see that what I wrote was unclear. I did mean to say that they are the same, but that if you buy from them, you'll get higher resolution images. Mark A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Jerry, thanks for the amplifcation: I can see that what I wrote was unclear. I did mean to say that they are the same, but that if you buy from them, you'll get higher resolution images. Mark A I think you can still get the higher resolution images via the Britain from the Air website. http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/buying-images Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharma66 Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think you can still get the higher resolution images via the Britain from the Air website. http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/buying-images I was excited at the prospect of buying a high res version of a couple of images, but the instructions on that link say: Digital images can be purchased directly from the website. An individual image or group of images is added to your basket by clicking the "Buy" button below images. Thing is, I can't for the life of my find a 'Buy' button! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I was excited at the prospect of buying a high res version of a couple of images, but the instructions on that link say: Thing is, I can't for the life of my find a 'Buy' button! That'll teach me not to follow all the way through - I can't find a buy button either! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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