Whitby & East Cleveland

[MarkC]

Indeed, there is a link to it on page 1 of this thread!

 

Alun

The beauty of just using the 'go to first unread post' option!!!

[Derekstuart]

As I know there are a few people here who are familiar with NER/BR(E) signalling practices, can anyone tell me what is happening here?

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0001-dh-whitbly-departing-dmu.jpg

 

My assumption:

The half disused bracket signal on the left speaks for itself- the right bracket controlling platform 2, the left bracket was removed when platform 3 was lifted.

 

However, it is the 2 starter signals on the far right post that I am unsure of. On a goods only line, it was possible to have two roads signalled from a single post- and if that was the case, then the upper one would denote a road diverging to the right. Or does one of those arms control the middle road? The middle road of course has the ground shunter signal.

 

It would appear that the two starter's both relate to platform 1 and just indicate to the driver which road out- diverging left to the UP or ahead on the down (with a crossing to the UP at bog hall one suspects- I believe the lines were bi-directional until Bog Hall crossing). However, this is just a guess on my part.

You can see just beyond it a home signal controlling traffic INTO the station- with a main home and a calling on arm below. But beyond that is another 'home' style signal for outbound traffic. It seems a very complicated signalling arrangement even for what was once quite a busy station.

Here's a schematic

http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=173

Any ideas anyone please?

[MarkC]

OK, I can confirm that the photo of the 03 at Robin Hoods Bay has been published in Robin Lidster's "Scarborough and Whitby Railway - a centenary volume", and shows D2151 on the last goods service.

[Steve Taylor]

RE: Whitby no.20 signal..... I might be wrong (I'm ducking and waiting for the whistle of incoming) but aren't the two arms shorter than the main platform starter (28) which is further away, suggesting these short arms are for shunt moves for clearing platform one? I've a vague memory that Whitby was incoming services on P1 and outbound on P2. Given the proximity in the frame of these signals (20 - mid stroke, one lever covering two signals) and 19 (FPL, 18b) , 18 (Crossover road) and 17 (FPL 18a) it seems plausible?

 

Now I'm off to hide as Beast, MickNich or Grovenor arrive to put me back in my box.

[Derekstuart]

Steve

 

After reading your comment above, I realise that I was reading the schematic incorrectly and that 19 is a FPL control.

 

28 is definately the P2 starter, and 20 must be the P1 starter, with the ground signal being used for the middle road.

 

I think you are right that 20 is a double signal- until summer 1953, the station had an overall roof and I suspect that this obscured the signal for any trains on platform 1. I believe that the signals had to be at certain heights, so the upper* arm had to be where it is, but the lower arm was also installed to assist with visibility.

 

In respect of the departure/arrival platforms- yes Whitby did use this practice when built. I haven't been able to find out when it ceased, although I suspect it was during the 1860 rebuild- they were struggling with space then anyway and the extra shunting movements would have been problematic. Although this point is disputed and some (including those writing the conservation report used by Scarborough Borough Council) seem convinced that such practices carried on until much later than that.

 

I think that there *might* be an error on that schematic anyway. It shows the lower left point of the scissor crossover as not having a FPL. You might think that it doesn't need one as it is the only one of 4 that isn't facing. However, from Bog Hall crossing the two lines were bi-directional. *However* that bi-directional signalling might only have been for access to the goods yard or for light movements, hence the *might*.

I think I know someone who will be able to answer that.

[russ p]

The dmu is departing platform 2 normally. The middle road is controlled by the disc. Platform 1 the top signal is for the left hand route and the lower on for the right hand route meaning using the crossover further up

[Derekstuart]

Hello Russ

 

That was my first thought (see above). However, I read before that this was only used on non-passenger lines???

Also, the schematic shows that both arms controlled by the one lever. This could suggest that the second option is correct- or that the bloke drawing it out was incorrect.

 

I have gone through all my photograps and I cannot find any evidence to show for certain.

[russ p]

I would say that 20 lever operated which ever signal the route is set for.

It's not that common for junction signals to be stacked on passenger lines but certainly within the rules. There was a similar signal at Battersby

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Russ. I have read further on this subject and I think the author of the first page I read didn't make it as clear- What he meant, I think, was that two lines could not be controlled from one post unless separated on a 2 dolly bracket.

 

So yes, I think you may well be right.

 

You can see in a situation where on X line it is permitted and the lower arm is for the left line and the upper arm is for the right line. In this case a driver on the middle road could forget what he's doing and think he has the right of way- just as platform 1 correctly reads the signal and proceeds forward...

 

I suppose that's what route learning is for though. But it does open up a whole myriad of issues from the days of non-standardisation. Even now drivers still have SPAD's by not paying attention to local rules.

[russ p]

The way to remember it is BR the lower of the signals is bottom is for the right hand route

As regards the main signal been mistakenly taken instead of the disc an identical arrangement albeit colour light exists at Norwich to this day

[Derekstuart]

BTW Russ I've just noticed your layout link in your signature (I must have had these turned off???) very good plan and does fit in quite well with what I understand about infrastructure in the area. Not cramped like a London terminus but not too far spaced out like rural Wales.

 

I shall be following your progress with interest.

[russ p]

Thanks Derek

[Guest G567281]

Kiltonthorpe and Priestcroft Junctions

 

I would be very grateful if any members can give me some indication as to when the track arrangement for these two junctions was simplified. i.e.: I have late 50's photo's which show the diamond crossings have been removed when compared to the NER white prints.

 

 

Kindest regards

 

Alan

[russ p]

At a guess I would say after south Skelton mine closed in 1954

[MarkC]

The 03 is on a pick up. I don't think mainline locos were ever used on this

Goods services finished about 63 64 before the passenger service which ended 6th March 1965

AFAIK there was only ever one main line diesel working over the Whitby-Scarborough line; EE Type 4 (later Class 40) D352 on a southbound excursion on 19th May 1964.

[russ p]

AFAIK there was only ever one main line diesel working over the Whitby-Scarborough line; EE Type 4 (later Class 40) D352 on a southbound excursion on 19th May 1964.

There was a picture of this many years ago in traction. You'd have thought if they were a bit worried about diesels over the route they'd have found something a bit lighter!

[Guest G567281]

AFAIK there was only ever one main line diesel working over the Whitby-Scarborough line; EE Type 4 (later Class 40) D352 on a southbound excursion on 19th May 1964.

This was "1Z26", a four character headcode version of the EE type 4. I obtained a photograph of the train from Ken Hoole back in the late 60's. It was Ken who stated "this was the only mainline diesel to traverse the line". He would know.

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Guest G567281]

At a guess I would say after south Skelton mine closed in 1954

Hi Russ,

 

Priestcroft Junc. was modified sometime between 1953 and 1959. There was once a set of coal drops opposite to the signal box too but I imagine these went many years earlier. The trailing connection remained as a catch point. The Loftus to M'bro DMU service was still operating until 1960 following the closure to Whitby via the coast in 1958. After which the Guisborough to Boosbeck section closed. The signalling at Brotton signal box was modified such that the double track section between Brotton and Boosbeck was worked as two single lines. One giving direct access to the Kilton branch with the other used by the Boosbeck pick up freight, which was now worked from the Brotton end, as opposed to Guisborough. This allowed the demolition of the bridge on Stanghow Lane. The triangle formed by the Saltburn extension was used to turn steam loco's that visited Saltburn during the late 50's, early 60's. As many as three loco's would be coupled up and run up and around the three lines. Jubilee's, Crabs and V2's apparently. I never witnessed this even though I lived by the line, but I was about ten years old at the time. I did join my uncle one Sunday morning when he was driving a Sulzer Type 2 D5158 on a demolition train. I met him at North Skelton Junc. Where if I recall correctly they were engaged in removing what was left of North Skelton / Priestcroft Junc. and the North Skelton mine connection.

 

Regards

 

 

Alan

[russ p]

Hi Alan, are you sure the stanghow lane bridge was demolished then? The day after the last passenger working to Guisborough in 64 apparently an engineers special ran and actually continued via Slapewath to Brotton. The line east of Guisborough didn't officially close until the Guisborough passenger service ended.

Who was your uncle? I was at Thornaby from 83 to 97

Edited March 10, 2015 by russ p

[Guest G567281]

Hi Alan, are you sure the stanghow lane bridge was demolished then? The day after the last passenger working to Guisborough in 64 apparently an engineers special ran and actually continued via Slapewath to Brotton. The line east of Guisborough didn't officially close until the Guisborough passenger service ended.

Who was your uncle? I was at Thornaby from 83 to 97

 

Hi Russ,

I understand a WD on an engineer's train (track lifting ?.) ran to Boosbeck after the closure of the Loftus service, I have a pic. I also understand a B1 on an inspection saloon passed through. No details known to me however.

The "Claphow" bridge was removed after the withdrawal of the goods services at Boosbeck, post '65 for road improvements. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I used to walk these tracks as a kid when they were full of bogie bolster wagons. I used to think it was because of the steel recession - seemed to be a lot of wagons for track lifting.

My uncle spent most of his firing/driving career at Saltburn shed. Transferring to Darlington in 1958 when the shed closed. He retired during the mid 60's if I recall correctly. I left the UK in 1973, by which time he had died. I still have his Engine Driver's Handbook. His name was Arthur Richard Lockwood.

 

Bye for now.

 

Alan

[russ p]

Hi Alan, the Boosbeck line was used for wagon storage in the 60s as was one line from ingleby to picton, the section from Picton to Trenholm bar was retained into the 70s for this.

Obviously I didn't know your uncle, there were a few driver's and guard's still based at saltburn station into the early 80s some passing to thornaby and guard's to Middlesbrough on closure

[Guest G567281]

Hi Alan, the Boosbeck line was used for wagon storage in the 60s as was one line from ingleby to picton, the section from Picton to Trenholm bar was retained into the 70s for this.

Obviously I didn't know your uncle, there were a few driver's and guard's still based at saltburn station into the early 80s some passing to thornaby and guard's to Middlesbrough on closure

Bill Paul was a DMU driver and Fred Batts was a conductor on the Saltburn/Darlington service.

[russ p]

I knew Bill quite well a very interesting bloke especially with his RAF stories

[Waveydavey]

I remember Bill Paul from my rostering days at Thornaby. He said he'd been a tail gunner in Lancasters during the war. Nice bloke.

[Ken 63388]

With reference to post #70, I can supply the following details:

 

The note below appeared in the May 1964 edition of 'Railway Magazine':

 

On March 2nd 1964 an inspection special was run from York carrying the Chief Civil Engineer to Tees-side. The train was headed by B1 4-6-0 61031 Reedbuck. The train was worked to Guisborough and the on to the closed mineral line from Guisborough signal box to Boosbeck and over the badly cracked Slapewath viaduct, about 2.5 miles east of Guisborough.

 

I assume the WD referred to in post #70 was No 90339 (56A), a photo of which is shown in the book 'Guisborough past and present' and is also displayed in the Guisborough museum. I saw this loco and its train, which was stationary roughly where the distant signal was located just east of Belmangate bridge, on Thursday 1st April 1965 at lunchtime (~12:30). I found out many years later from someone at work who was the signalman at North Ormesby crossing box on that day, that the train had worked from Dinsdale PW depot. The loco was noted in RO May 1965 on Darlington shed ex-works on Sunday 27th March 1965.

 

Ken