Virney Junction - Scenery ongoing

[Andrew P]

Morning Ray, personally I would stay away from gradients if you want to run long trains, although Mike on Dent has mastered it quite successfully using two Helix.

[Ray H]

Morning Ray, personally I would stay away from gradients if you want to run long trains, although Mike on Dent has mastered it quite successfully using two Helix.

Andy, thanks for that.

 

I may run the occasional long train just for the fun of it but that will be the exception to the rule, but global gradients aren't currently on my radar. The branch will have a gradient to make access to the fiddle yard behind easier but I haven't worked out what the gradient will be yet. I think a drop of 2 - 3 inches will be enough if I have a low backscene between the station and the fiddle yard, one that hides the fiddle yard when the operator is seated but isn't that high when standing that you can't get to the tracks behind without some strange gymnastic contortions.

 

I do like Mike's (Dent) system but the wider the boards the shorter some of the sidings become and as I've got the same length of wall available on each side of the garage I'm not sure I'd gain that much by hiding the fiddle yard under the scenic boards.

 

What might be an idea though is to have a mechanised means of raising and lowering the fiddle yard tracks so that I could have two or more layers of sidings - a bit like a vertical "traverser". You set everything up on all the levels at the start of the day and work your way through the levels one at a time as the day progresses. I might be tempted to do something similar manually - i.e. effectively using multi-track cassettes - if I didn't have to lift them over the branch station.

 

But then I'm creeping back towards routine inter-action with the storage area which I desperately want to avoid.

[Andrew P]

Andy, thanks for that.

 

I may run the occasional long train just for the fun of it but that will be the exception to the rule, but global gradients aren't currently on my radar. The branch will have a gradient to make access to the fiddle yard behind easier but I haven't worked out what the gradient will be yet. I think a drop of 2 - 3 inches will be enough if I have a low backscene between the station and the fiddle yard, one that hides the fiddle yard when the operator is seated but isn't that high when standing that you can't get to the tracks behind without some strange gymnastic contortions.

 

I do like Mike's (Dent) system but the wider the boards the shorter some of the sidings become and as I've got the same length of wall available on each side of the garage I'm not sure I'd gain that much by hiding the fiddle yard under the scenic boards.

 

What might be an idea though is to have a mechanised means of raising and lowering the fiddle yard tracks so that I could have two or more layers of sidings - a bit like a vertical "traverser". You set everything up on all the levels at the start of the day and work your way through the levels one at a time as the day progresses. I might be tempted to do something similar manually - i.e. effectively using multi-track cassettes - if I didn't have to lift them over the branch station.

 

But then I'm creeping back towards routine inter-action with the storage area which I desperately want to avoid.

Ray, Ray, Ray my friend, I feel your trying to over complicate a very simple Fiddle Yard, You will need to manually remove and replace stock if you want more variety in operation, there is no other sensible way around it, but raising and lowering Fiddle Yards IMHO is a most definite NO NO.

 

I hope Mike will agree with that.

[Ray H]

Ray, Ray, Ray my friend, I feel your trying to over complicate a very simple Fiddle Yard, You will need to manually remove and replace stock if you want more variety in operation, there is no other sensible way around it, but raising and lowering Fiddle Yards IMHO is a most definite NO NO.

 

I hope Mike will agree with that.

Fear not Andy, my technical skills are so limited that whilst it might be nice, there's not a cat in h*ll's chance that I'd even attempt it! However, thanks for the comment.

 

I think I'll just have to accept that I'll need to make the odd excursion to the fiddle yard to re-marshal trains. Oh well, out with a draft timetable and let's see how I can plan the working of the fiddle yard!

[The Great Bear]

Ray

 

Assuming you don't need the backscene behind the branch fiddle yard, could you sneak in a kickback siding to the outer staging track or two then use that to assemble trains. Or have "assembly" tracks running parallel to your mainline as kick back sidings over the lifting flap, which is the only easily accessible bit of track.

 

My layout's similar in that I have branch terminal in front of staging yards, and I'll admit I'm not sure how that's going to work once rest of layout is complete and the general mess cleared, so I'm thinking I may need to change to something like the above.

 

Will be interested to see how you deal with this.

 

Jon

[Ray H]

Garage Door

 

One aspect I hadn't fully considered was the rear garage door, the one that opens into the garage from the house and where I have shown the access flap. It is in the rear left hand corner of the garage, behind you when facing the up & over door i.e. with the branch on your right.

 

The door is fitted with an integral spring, presumably as a kind of fire precaution, but that's not insurmountable because I've long been used to securing the door in a partially open position; wide enough to get through with ease but not open to 90º (or more).

 

And the aspect that I haven't considered?

 

It won't be possible to open the door more than the proverbial gnat's with the access flap down and almost certainly not enough to be able lift the access flap from the house side. That effectively traps any incapacitated occupants in the garage with little if any chance of getting to them without recourse to the heavy mob (which I'd need for my defence if my wife thought I was suggesting that she qualified in the role!). There's also a risk that as the only practical exit/access, there could be a significant delay in getting to the flap, lifting it and then opening the door to leave the garage in an emergency. Its also made me think about having an emergency light illuminated at all times when the garage is in use with the door closed do I can safely find my way out if the lights failed even temporarily.

 

I may just be worrying too much unnecessarily - and I have to admit that some of the more serious thoughts have only occurred as I've written this. The present arrangement of stuff in the garage prevents the door from being fully opened and it may well be that once this can be achieved - I need to demolish the shelving that held much of my no longer required woodturning supplies - I may be able to open the door fully and secure it in the open position whenever the access flap is down. It does however, seem almost certain that I may have to re-align the tracks on the access flap so that they are a little further from the garage wall because the domestic gas main runs along the garage wall behind the open door so that I can't have the door fully against the wall.

 

It will be noted from the plans posted so far that the outer fiddle yard siding is very near to the garage wall and that the outer - Down - running line is a straight line connection to that siding. But it may not be all bad because if I do move the access flap away from the wall and have the siding nearest the wall as a convergence onto the Down line, I'd have scope to add a further point at the end of the siding to which I could attach a cassette thereby giving me access to both Up & Down lines at that end of the fiddle yard to add, remove or re-marshal trains.

 

A possible benefit of the 22mm gas pipe a little higher up the wall (and mounted on fixing brackets at least 10mm from the wall) is that I could possibly have an extra single track siding hugging the wall (behind the open door) instead of a cassette to accommodate a further train. I could use that siding to re-marshal trains and then propel them back into the siding á la Little Bytham.

 

All being well I shall be able to share further thoughts later in the week when I hope to be able to demolish the shelving to get the door open as far as I can and re-assess the situation.

[Jason T]

Ray, have you considered using a cassette system like Gilbert has used on Peterborough? Basically, he has a long dead end siding in each direction and a number of 2-3' long cassettes. To make up trains, he dimply runs the stock out of the cassettes by hand (one cassette at a time if a longer train is required) and then adds a lock and brake van. For putting them away, use a Peco loco lift to remove the loco, uncouple the stock as required, run back onto the cassettes and store them. A simple solution and one that saves space - he is very happy with it.

[The Stationmaster]

Ray,

 

Can the door be rearranged to open the other way?  That would seem to be a simple solution as far as the garage area is concerned but of course it might cause a problem elsewhere.

[Ray H]

Ray, have you considered using a cassette system like Gilbert has used on Peterborough? Basically, he has a long dead end siding in each direction and a number of 2-3' long cassettes. To make up trains, he dimply runs the stock out of the cassettes by hand (one cassette at a time if a longer train is required) and then adds a lock and brake van. For putting them away, use a Peco loco lift to remove the loco, uncouple the stock as required, run back onto the cassettes and store them. A simple solution and one that saves space - he is very happy with it.

Thanks Jason.

 

I'm trying to resist the temptation to get involved to much with the fiddle yard during an operating session because I've convinced myself that the present layout has stalled because of the constant need to turn around to reset the traverser after virtually every train movement. I think swapping cassettes too often would create a similar feel. It may be different if the layout was regularly operated by at least two people but I'd like to be able to sit down and operate the layout without the constant requirement to get up and reset something in the fiddle yard so that a train can make one circuit of the layout and then be taken off again.

 

I'm currently having a re-think on the positioning of the access tracks in the fiddle yard and that may enable me to cater for cassettes (for occasional use) for trains in each direction. alas, at present I only have practical access to the Up line - the inner track of the layout.

 

Your post has made me revisit the use of loco lifts although the close spacing of the fiddle yard sidings that I've adopted so far my prevent the adjacent use of two of them simultaneously. I thank you for giving me a nudge in that direction.

 

Now if someone could devise a slightly narrower loco lift and with variable lengths I could be very interested.

[Ray H]

Ray,

 

Can the door be rearranged to open the other way?  That would seem to be a simple solution as far as the garage area is concerned but of course it might cause a problem elsewhere.

Mike

 

Thanks.

 

That's not totally out of the question. It does seem strange that the door opens into the garage rather than out of it if it is meant for emergency exit (otherwise I can't see the reason for the inbuilt closer) - the back door to the house is six feet away across the utility room so I can't see anyone wanting to escape from the house into the garage.

 

I posted the above to alert others to the fact that they may be unwittingly creating problems for themselves if their access/egress arrangements aren't fully thought out.

 

Nothing's fixed in stone at present thankfully.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike

 

Thanks.

 

That's not totally out of the question. It does seem strange that the door opens into the garage rather than out of it if it is meant for emergency exit (otherwise I can't see the reason for the inbuilt closer) - the back door to the house is six feet away across the utility room so I can't see anyone wanting to escape from the house into the garage.

 

I posted the above to alert others to the fact that they may be unwittingly creating problems for themselves if their access/egress arrangements aren't fully thought out.

 

Nothing's fixed in stone at present thankfully.

Good point Ray - fortunately with the 'room' which I have in my garage (effectively half of a double garage structure) I thought on my feet and the door opens outwards, rather less convenient is the fact that it lies centrally in one of the long walls but I reckoned that might be easier to deal with than having it near one end.

[Ray H]

I've just had a closer look at the garage door. It has a one sided frame so that would need enhancing/replacement, some of which I could do myself. Alas there's a PIR sensor in the corner of the recess where the door frame is and that would also need moving.

 

I could simply remove the door completely (and have a heavy duty curtain over the opening) or possibly replace the solid with a bi-fold door.

 

I'll hold back on a decision until I've done some more work on the fiddle yard design and checked to see how the land lies after I've removed the obstructions that presently prevent the current door from opening fully.

 

I have a few other things to do over the next couple of days so I doubt the layout planning will see much further attention before the weekend.

[MikeHemmings]

That to me sound like a fire door there to protect the house from a fire in the garage,ie a solid door extra deep door stops a door closer, this is a requirement of the building regulations the garage floor should be about 150mm lower than the house floor.

 

Mike

[Ray H]

Mike

 

Sounds like you've been to my house. You're spot on. I just find it strange that the door opens by pulling it into the garage which goes against my logical thinking.

 

I have to admit that I am a little reluctant to remove the door so I shall be endeavouring to find a solution that keeps the door in situ even if it has to be "held" open when the layout is in use.

[MikeHemmings]

I have the same at my house door open into the garage.

 

Mike

[Brian D]

Mike

 

Sounds like you've been to my house. You're spot on. I just find it strange that the door opens by pulling it into the garage which goes against my logical thinking.

 

I have to admit that I am a little reluctant to remove the door so I shall be endeavouring to find a solution that keeps the door in situ even if it has to be "held" open when the layout is in use.

Hi Ray,

Just catching up with your thread by speed reading, that is to say hardly reading any of it at all

You (or a tame "chippie") could always modify the door and frame and reposition the hinges so that it opens outwards, or have I missed this suggestion by my not very good speed reading? 

Regards,

Brian.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Brian D

[Ray H]

Brian

 

The door is a fire door and there are a couple of other reasons not to re-hang it even though as mentioned before it seems odd to have an inwards opening door if you want to escape from the garage.

 

The up & over garage door is all but sealed and is certainly not an escape route (in a hurry). The exit from the garage into the house is into the utility room with its own door into the garden no more than about seven feet across from the garage door.

 

I haven't forsaken this thread, indeed I can even see me making a start on some of the framework to support the layout fairly soon - once I've gone as far as I can with the O gauge Derby Lightweight railcar that I'm working on.

 

Much of the plant that was stopping the advance of the 4mm layout has now gone and provided useful funding for the rebuild.

 

I am still pondering over the radii of the curves on the hidden section. Dropping down to about 2ft radius would give me another 18 inches in fiddle yard siding lengths. That'll be quite useful if I want to use each siding to hold two trains.

 

Another option is to single the double track briefly on the approach to each end of the fiddle yard so that all sidings can be used for both arrival and departure in both directions. I don't think that I shall miss not being able to run two trains simultaneously in opposite directions.

[Ray H]

There's been some further progress at last.

 

A before (left) and an after (right) shot taken today. There is a difference I promise you!

 

 

Much of the morning was spent trying to free up some cupboard space so that the modelling related items previously on top of the cupboards on the left and mostly out of shot could be found a home in the far cupboard on the left whilst what was previously in that cupboard has been transferred to boxes as a short term measure and placed on top of the cupboards (out of shot) prior to being disposed of.

 

The toolboxes and box of wood seen on the floor in the first image has been placed on the cupboards until there's some more baseboard supports under which it can be stored - the wood is also waiting to be disposed of.

 

The machines that were formerly at the far end of the garage have long been fitted with wheels. This allows them to be moved around the garage at will as more of the baseboard supports are built. The machines will go eventually but I'm holding onto them until I've built the baseboards.

 

The timber on the floor in the right hand picture is what is being used to make the supports for the layout. It is all stuff that I've had in stock for a while and would be heading for the tip otherwise. What isn't visible is the box of wood that is definitely heading to the tip. Several bits thereof were long enough to be useful for building the supports but were subsequently found to be so twisted that they're no use for anything. All this timber has been stored on a shelf across the width of the garage above the door into the utility room (in case anyone wonders where it had been hiding).

 

By the end of today I had continued the (baseboard) support totally along the left hand side of the garage. I'm hoping to be able to complete the supports across the far end of the garage tomorrow.

 

I've just realised that although I loosely placed some plywood sheets on top of the support built today and just visible at the far end of the garage, I had done so too early because I've forgotten to fit the shelf beneath the support.

 

There will be a shelf under all the new supports. That shelf and the floor beneath will provide the storage space necessary to clear the cupboard tops and to allow numerous modelling related items currently dotted all over the house to be located in just one place much to the pleasure of the domestic manager!

[Andrew P]

There's been some further progress at last.

 

A before (left) and an after (right) shot taken today. There is a difference I promise you!

 

070215_1.jpg070215_2.jpg

 

Much of the morning was spent trying to free up some cupboard space so that the modelling related items previously on top of the cupboards on the left and mostly out of shot could be found a home in the far cupboard on the left whilst what was previously in that cupboard has been transferred to boxes as a short term measure and placed on top of the cupboards (out of shot) prior to being disposed of.

 

The toolboxes and box of wood seen on the floor in the first image has been placed on the cupboards until there's some more baseboard supports under which it can be stored - the wood is also waiting to be disposed of.

 

The machines that were formerly at the far end of the garage have long been fitted with wheels. This allows them to be moved around the garage at will as more of the baseboard supports are built. The machines will go eventually but I'm holding onto them until I've built the baseboards.

 

The timber on the floor in the right hand picture is what is being used to make the supports for the layout. It is all stuff that I've had in stock for a while and would be heading for the tip otherwise. What isn't visible is the box of wood that is definitely heading to the tip. Several bits thereof were long enough to be useful for building the supports but were subsequently found to be so twisted that they're no use for anything. All this timber has been stored on a shelf across the width of the garage above the door into the utility room (in case anyone wonders where it had been hiding).

 

By the end of today I had continued the (baseboard) support totally along the left hand side of the garage. I'm hoping to be able to complete the supports across the far end of the garage tomorrow.

 

I've just realised that although I loosely placed some plywood sheets on top of the support built today and just visible at the far end of the garage, I had done so too early because I've forgotten to fit the shelf beneath the support.

 

There will be a shelf under all the new supports. That shelf and the floor beneath will provide the storage space necessary to clear the cupboard tops and to allow numerous modelling related items currently dotted all over the house to be located in just one place much to the pleasure of the domestic manager!

Good progress Ray, its nice to see someone else's Man Cave.

[emt_911]

Have to agree with Andy. Excellent progress.

[sp1]

Not sure if this is appropriate if the door is a fire door, but had you thought of cutting a piece out of the the bottom and installing a human sized 'cat-flap' type arrangement : if the worst happened you would be able to crawl out?

[Ray H]

Not sure if this is appropriate if the door is a fire door, but had you thought of cutting a piece out of the the bottom and installing a human sized 'cat-flap' type arrangement : if the worst happened you would be able to crawl out?

Thank you for your concern. The pictures above were taken from the doorway between the garage and the rest of the house That door is designed as a fire door. It is some seven feet from that doorway across to the utility room's external door effectively making the garage albeit with its now single door probably nearer to an external door than several other parts of the house.

 

The first picture below will hopefully clarify the situation.

[Ray H]

The picture below shows the garage looking towards the fire door and the end of the garage from whence most previous pictures have been taken. The door to the rest of the house is on the left. The utility room is beyond that and the exit door into the garden is to the right of the boiler and freezer which are just visible.

 

The "pile" of wood to the right of the doorway is destined for the recycling or tidy tip. The Heath Robinson style vertical shelving on the left and in front of the doorway had at the time when the picture was taken - on Sunday morning - still to be cleared and dismantled.

 

The high level shelf above the garage door can also be seen. This was formerly the home of the long lengths of softwood now adorning the floor and intended as the source for much of the baseboard support structure.

 

This was the scene at the start of the day.

 

The first task was to complete the shelving under the support that I'd forgotten to add on Saturday. This took a lot longer than expected although I can't think why (other than not really knowing how long it would take). The 2" x 1" pieces of softwood intended for the shelving were reclaimed from the above mentioned vertical shelving at the opposite end of the garage once those shelves had been cleared.

 

It was at this point that I realised that there was nowhere near enough 2" x 1" in the other unit to service the requirements of the shelving under the baseboard supports. Equally, many of the lengths of wood lying on the floor were not as long (or as straight) as I'd hoped and would be insufficient to construct the baseboard support structure. In fact, there wasn't even enough to start work on the right hand side of the garage.

 

A shopping trip was required and whilst I was out I might as well take the food for the tidy tip to its new home. The tip is about a mile away in one direction, the DIY shed about 2 miles distant in the opposite direction. The joint expedition took almost two hours! There was a queue for the tip. It was nearly an hour later by the time we'd loaded the car at home and queued for the tip before we got to the DIY store.

 

There I waited for a considerable time for the person to cut the 2440mm by 1220mm sheet of 12mm thick MDF into the manageable sizes that will both fit in the car and form the shelving under the rest of the baseboard supports. The best part of a further hour had elapsed by the time I returned home.

 

I'd achieved little more by the end of the day as the picture below will show. The supports on the right hand side at the far end of the garage had been fixed to the wall having negotiated the main gas pipe (just out of shot) and the recently installed surface mounted earth wire between the house fuse panel and the external meter cupboard.

 

The good news is that the floor is a little less cluttered although the "tip" fodder seems to have been replaced by the newly purchased wood for the rest of the supports.

 

[Andrew P]

Hi Ray, well at least its a step in the right direction, good job you haven't got to go to work in the morning.

 

Good luck with getting it all sorted.

[Ray H]

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

No work true but I've gotten myself involved with a bit of volunteering at a local charity. I suspect I shall be there for most of the week.

 

There's a show locally next Saturday so I fear it could be next Sunday before much further progress is made.