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Model Freight Train Operation


Ray H

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Thanks for the link.

 

The trainflow software looks interesting save that it seems to have the same limitation as other software. They require the continual use of a computer, something that I'm trying to avoid. Hence my card based ideas.

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Having only just found this thread ...... I think I understand the basic concept and it looks like a great idea to me.  I would have thought you would also need cards for the individual wagons, which you would clip to the consignment cards when assigned?  But maybe I missed something.

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Thanks for the comment.

 

Wagons not readily available at a place to convey a consignment are sourced by use of the "Wire" cards. It is probably simpler to use one "Wire" card per requested wagon - so a requirement for three empty wagons would require three cards. At that stage the consignment hasn't moved.

 

Consignments and wagons effectively become one for the loaded portion of the move - the critical thing being that a consignment may necessitate the use of more than one wagon.

 

Wagons and consignments part company the moment the consignment arrives at its destination.

 

I hadn't paid too much attention to where on a train the wagons conveying a specific consignment are positioned but it would seem logical to order the cards and the wagons ion the same order.

 

The train's card stack is moved around the layout by the driver.

 

The composition of trains circumnavigating the layout without stopping to attach/detach is largely irrelevant and the stack may remain in the fiddle yard.

 

In the longer term we may need to decide what happens to a consignment if the wagon (or wagons) in which the consignment is being carried have to be unexpectedly detached from the train prior to reaching the perceived destination of the consignment.

 

I hope this clarifies my thinking.

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I should have said "attached to the consignment card or wire card when assigned" ..... just thinking that, especially if you do change operators, you could lose track of which consignment is in which wagon(s), or which wagon is being moved empty in response to which wire.  And (as discussed above re coal wagons) wagons and consignments surely part company after unloading rather than on arrival.  So if wagon cards were still attached to the consignment card while it went through its flipping and turning waiting processes, that would stop them being used again too soon.

 

Not meaning to nit-pick - just thinking through, with a view to stealing and implementing your idea at some point in the future!!

 

Mind you, I can see this would give you 80 more cards to drop, or have knocked over by the cat .......

 

Happy New Shunting Year!

 

Chris

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Chris

 

I think I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.

 

There are no rolling stock cards as such. The whole idea works solely around "Consignment" and "wire" cards.

 

A "wire" card is passed by hand from the station that requires the wagon (type) to the place that has a surplus of that wagon (type). The destination of the wanted wagon (type) is shown on the back of the "wire" card and this is the "authority" for the movement of the empty wagon (type). The "wire" card moves with the empty wagon and is returned to the station's "wire" card stack when the wagon (type) arrives where the card sent it.

 

Loaded wagon(s) use the "authority" of the "Consignment" card for their movement(s).

 

There will frequently be information relating to a completely different consignment on the reverse of the "Consignment" card although I have recently come to recognise that some wagons - like coal - need to return empty and the "authority" to make this (empty) movement will have to be on the back of a "Consignment" card although I'm not sure at present whether it will be on the reverse of the "Consignment" card that brought the wagon (type) to the location or on the reverse of a different "Consignment" card.

 

The reason for the undecided aspect of this is that we may want to build in a "hold" to allow a loaded wagon to be emptied. I indicated above that we could get up to a three day "hold" by varying the orientation of the card on the stack of "Consignment" (cards) awaiting despatch. I'd like to devise a means of extending that hold if I can.

 

Another area that I may need to cater for is despatching an excess of wagon (types) when there are more of a type arriving than departing. For example, there may be several vans arriving with consignments over a couple of days but the number of consignments awaiting despatch is less than half that number. The excess will soon block the available storage space.

 

The simple solution would always be for "Consignment" cards to reference the same wagon (types) on each side of the card. The danger with this is that the arriving & departing relationships of wagon types would always be the same which is not prototypical. Although I'd prefer not to have a third card type, that may be the only option although it could be a half-brother of a "wire" card, a kind of "Get out of jail free" device that allows the excess the be sent away when not required.

 

There's nothing unprototypical in the (local) yard "manager" from looking through the "Consignment" cards they have on hand and seeing what traffic will need processing in the next few days before sending the excess away. That's no different from the (prototypical) yard getting some warning of what traffic they're about to be asked to handle.

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Although it might need some refinement when it's up & running I think the beauty of the system Ray has devised is that it gets away from what amounts almost to the automatic balancing of arriving and departing wagons.  As he says it achieves the prototypical elements of creating demands for wagons which the station doesn't have on hand/is expecting to 'make' (off inwards working) together with the creation of surplus empties which aren't needed for outwards loads.

 

What it can also potentially translate into is a freight train arriving with, say, 8 wagons and departing with 3 - or vice versa - which will I think add to operationai challenge/enjoyment (possibly some will call it 'play value').  Equally of course it can also create demands for extra or special trains, again very much like events in the real world.

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Mike, I didn't see your last post and its second paragraph until today, my system has, or can readily have that facility of trains arriving and departing with a different number of wagons. 

 

Straightforward enough: have numbered cards say from 2 to 8, on arrival one of these cards is drawn and that determines the number of wagons to depart. Wagon cards would then drawn of that number and the train made up accordingly.

 

As you say such a feature  does add to the "play value" but more important  and as you suggest, produces the appearance of everyday freight workings.

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I have found this topic on recommendation of a member and it has been a fascinating read. It nice to see the operational aspect of a model layout thoroughly discussed and different ideas put forward.

It seems to me that if one invests a lot of resources into constructing a layout that can be operated like the prototype (even in general terms) that must add real pleasure to the exercise of building it? Maybe I am over simplistic on this but that's how I feel anyway.

I see three main challenges to the modeller; 

(1) designed the layout with reasonable operational potential- enough industries to generate traffic movements, siding space and somewhere "off stage" for traffic to be held etc etc...

(2) use a coupling system(automatic?) that does not frustrate all who operate but is flexible enough to provide reasonably smooth and reliable shunting of traffic- this is why I have been asking some members (Nick of Much Murkle, John Flann, and today David of Woodstowe) what system they enjoy using to operate their own great layouts.

(3) devised a reasonably simple operating schedule/timetable/consignment approach etc, that can assist one to have realistic operational movements in model form on the said layout.

 

This is why I am really interested in finding out how some of the excellent layouts on this forum approach their operations, and what couplings they use to help this.

 

Thanks for letting me say a few words or queries on this topic

 

Andy R

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My Virney Junction thread provides an update on the status of my layout.

 

Realisation of space limitations brought about a major change in the layout's design and that initial change had been the subject of a couple of further changes subsequently.

 

Nonetheless, the track is all but down (and the associated wiring at a similar state). It is now time to give the layout some testing and what better way to achieve this than to try to work up my ideas for freight train operation.

 

The new layout is "Y" shaped and comprises two on stage stations and three fiddle yards. The tail of the "Y" is a single track fiddle yard that will need to accommodate the occasional passenger train. The main (7 road) fiddle yard is on one branch of the "Y" with a 2 road (freight only) fiddle yard on the other branch.

 

Each of the stations has a goods yard and (at least one) "private" siding. Each fiddle yard has the scope for representing a number of locations but I am currently undecided whether the one on the tail of the "Y" has a connection to the rest of the network.

 

The layout has been built with as much emphasis on freight movement as there is on the general operation of the layout.

 

A consequence of the design changes is that I suspect my original ideas aired earlier in this thread may need some changes, one of which may be to introduce wagon cards and assign consignments to wagons at the consignments originating location in a similar way to that used in northolland's thread above.

 

I shall be pondering this over the next few days as I await the arrival of the components to complete the last bit of track laying.

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My Virney Junction thread provides an update on the status of my layout.

 

Realisation of space limitations brought about a major change in the layout's design and that initial change had been the subject of a couple of further changes subsequently.

 

Nonetheless, the track is all but down (and the associated wiring at a similar state). It is now time to give the layout some testing and what better way to achieve this than to try to work up my ideas for freight train operation.

 

The new layout is "Y" shaped and comprises two on stage stations and three fiddle yards. The tail of the "Y" is a single track fiddle yard that will need to accommodate the occasional passenger train. The main (7 road) fiddle yard is on one branch of the "Y" with a 2 road (freight only) fiddle yard on the other branch.

 

Each of the stations has a goods yard and (at least one) "private" siding. Each fiddle yard has the scope for representing a number of locations but I am currently undecided whether the one on the tail of the "Y" has a connection to the rest of the network.

 

The layout has been built with as much emphasis on freight movement as there is on the general operation of the layout.

 

A consequence of the design changes is that I suspect my original ideas aired earlier in this thread may need some changes, one of which may be to introduce wagon cards and assign consignments to wagons at the consignments originating location in a similar way to that used in northolland's thread above.

 

I shall be pondering this over the next few days as I await the arrival of the components to complete the last bit of track laying.

Good planning will reap rewards Ray, I hope to do a similar thing with Pencarne and use the Card system, (like John Flann on Hintock as well) for the Local and Pick Up Goods for both Pencarne Junction and Trewenn, I'll be back for a full read through this later, (but NOT tonight).

 

Happy planning and playing.

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I have to admit to penning my previous post towards the end of yesterday and the comments about adding wagon cards were dreamt up as I typed the post. I was conscious at the time that the latest modification might start to overly complicate matters. Equally I'm aware that it can't be too simple if I want it to be realistic.

 

What I'm trying to achieve is something that doesn't result in the same consignment always being conveyed by the same wagon and even better still, not always between the same two locations.

 

I'm acutely aware that the system needs to normally avoid (for example) something like a tractor being transhipped between the two stations on the scenic part of the layout. Unless it had a major defect (that would probably preclude it getting to or from a station under its own power anyway) such a journey would be much more straightforward and probably significantly cheaper by road. At the same time I don't want to prevent a consignment being carried from one of the fiddle yards to one of the stations (or vice versa) or being transported between two fiddle yards.

 

Today's thoughts have centred around adding coloured dots to either side of a consignment card and varying how those dots are related to locations - possibly with a different meaning in each direction. For example a red dot might related to one station in one direction whereas the same colour dot means somewhere else in the other direction. The interpretation of the dots would vary each day.

 

This though, as they say, is something to be thought about in more detail over the next few days. In the meantime I now have the materials to hand to complete the construction work that will allow the final bits of track to be laid.

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By way of a recap for newcomers, my end to end layout has three fiddle yards and two stations. One station has around five distinct locations to place wagons, the other probably more than eight – the mileage siding alone is over 3ft in length!

 

I’m trying to develop an infinitely variable (manual) system for the movement of freight stock between the various places on the layout incorporating many of the restrictions that the real railway faced. I want to keep computers away from the layout or the layout will never get used!

 

The system has to avoid (general merchandise) wagon(s) solely working between the same two places.

 

My initial thoughts envisaged cards for consignments. This then stretched to include a separate set of cards to request empty wagons to move the consignments when no suitable wagon was available – I’d called these “wire” cards because requests for empty wagons would be telegraphed (or wired) in the days before telephones were routinely available.

 

More recently I’ve realised that knowledge of the position of a wagon in a train was essential for shunting and meant that I’d be unlikely to avoid the need for a card for each wagon as well.

 

I want to make the system basic enough to be able to be understood by people with limited railway knowledge that might want to try their hand at operating the layout. This is because I want to avoid the need to have to put things back where they were once the visitor has left.

 

It’s not working out to be the simplistic style of system that I’d hoped for but, on reflection, I doubt freight movement on the real railway was that simplistic.

 

And there’s more . . . .

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Try as I may latterly I can’t now move away from the three different card types.

 

Each consignment card will detail the consignment, the vehicle type for that consignment, a priority flag and (as a recent addition) a code; there'll be more about this code later.

 

Consignment cards will (usually) have details of different consignments on each side, probably one in each direction (and not necessarily related). Consequently, consignment cards can be dealt out initially and the system is then self-perpetuating. There will be at least one wagon on the layout of every type that the consignment cards require.

 

“Wire” cards will be passed by hand from the location that requires the wagon to the location that has the required wagon. “Wire” cards will be held centrally, drawn as required and returned to the central stack once the required wagon arrives where it is required. Again, there will be at least one “wire” card for each wagon type and several for the more popular wagon types.

 

“Wire” cards will have a pocket into which a requesting station would put its own place name card. This card replaces the consignment card for the (empty) wagon movement and is then exchanged for the consignment card once the wagon is received.

 

The wagon cards will also have a pocket to hold a consignment card. The concept could probably be developed to allow (multiple) “smalls” consignments to be conveyed in a single wagon. There would then be a requirement for pockets to be large enough to accommodate several consignment cards.

 

Wagon cards will be endorsed “Return empty to” to take care of situations where wagons become available and yet there are no consignments for them to convey. Such wagons are despatched (empty) by the appropriate service.

 

The reverse of some consignment cards may also show “empty” as a means of moving wagons around.

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Eagled eyed readers will note the general absence of (loaded) destinations on any cards. I originally intended this to be part of the consignment card’s details viz: “Animal Feed to (destination)”. However, I then realised that what was also needed in many cases was reference to a specific siding at the destination as well as having the flexibility to vary consignment destinations. This is where the code on the consignment card will come into play.

 

The code was again originally envisaged as a single character – to represent a location – but I now recognise that that isn’t precise enough. Instead I think that the code needs to comprise three parts (not necessarily arranged in the following order).

 

Part 1 indicates the specific siding location to be used at the destination.

 

This will be ignored at the fiddle yards and can be interpreted differently at each station. For example, codes M1 & M2 may be different places on the mileage siding at the larger station but the same place at the smaller station. Each station will have a plan that indicates where the codes refer to.

 

Part 2 will provide the destination (location) and will be referenced via a look-up “table” designed in such a way that consignments can’t end up somewhere that can’t handle them e.g. there’s probably no requirement to send milk to somewhere that can’t unload it!

 

The look-up “table” will take the form of either a round disc/compass style device (with the code letters around the fixed outside and a moveable inner disc that shows locations) or a sliding bar (where the codes are on the sliding part and the locations in columns on the fixed part).

 

The look-up table device will be set to the same combination at all locations and will be reset at the end of each timetable day.

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Part 3 will be a numerical value that is interpreted as the number of days before the wagon is released from the incoming consignment and available to be reloaded (or sent away empty). Wagon and consignment cards will remain as one until this time period has expired.

 

I’ll probably limit the range between 1 and 3 or things will start to get unwieldy. I’m inclined to the view that this part of the code should apply to every location although I could envisage a situation where one or more fiddle yards may be excluded from its use. That said, I don’t anticipate any wagon being moved between any two locations more than once per timetable day.

 

Part 3 requires participating locations to be equipped with a number of holders. The main (two part) holder will be the “To Go” holder with one part storing consignments that are due to be despatched during the current timetable day (if the relevant wagon is available) and the other part the wagons available to be used.

 

Each of the (currently) three other holders will be populated by cards that arrive with trains. The incoming cards are added to the content of the holder whose number is shown in Part 3 of the consignment card code. The storage order within the holders is irrelevant as they’ll be sorted (by consignment priority) when they eventually move to the “To Go” holder.

 

Consignment/Wagon cards will be moved between holders at the end of each timetable day. The card combinations in the Day 1 holder will be separated. The wagon cards will move to the “(Wagon) Available” holder and the consignment card will be turned over and placed in the “(Consignment) To Go” holder according to the despatch priority for the consignment.

 

Cards in the Day 2 holder will be moved to the Day 1 holder and those in the Day 3 holder will move to Day 2. This should leave the Day 3 holder empty and may even leave one or both of the other Day holders clear.

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Consignments are sorted and assigned to Wagon cards (where that is possible) at the start of each timetable day and “Wire” cards are initiated as required and passed to the relevant place.

 

“Wired for” wagons won’t be available for use until the following day at the earliest so wagon cards in the Day 1 & Day 2 holders can be checked to see if a wagon will become available that is suitable for the consignment and thus avoid the need to “wire” for a suitable wagon.

 

This may leave a few unpaired consignment cards in the holder (waiting for a suitable wagon) and some empty wagon cards. The latter will be added to the relevant train (where space permits) during the day.

 

Paired cards will sorted into train and priority order and the appropriate wagons added to the appropriate service during the timetable day.

 

Excesses of wagons – either empty of full – can be worked away by special trains. I have yet to determine how this will be actioned. One idea is to have an engine and brakevan path in the timetable and use the path for any special trains when necessary.

 

I think that the system is fairly straight forward to use once it is set up with the most complicated part being between timetable days when cards are moved around and the look-up tables adjusted. This needn’t involve (untrained) visitors who only have to work to remove specified wagons from and add specified wagons to trains. I think it unlikely that visitors will be present for more than one “end of Timetable Day” scenario.

 

My last thought (currently!) is where to put the paired cards whilst the train they're due to be moved on is still awaited. Presumably they could be placed in the "Wagons to go" holder in train departure order or they could have a separate holder.

 

I should add that cards will be passed from place to place by hand as the train moves around the layout. This will mean I inevitably walk them around the layout myself!

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That all makes perfect sense to me Ray but then I have always been very much in favour of your consignment based idea.  

 

I think you could possibly simplify the smalls concept into amounts per destination/tranship point and then while some would be steady others would have busier days or peaks.  For example Suttons Seeds (with whose traffic I have a  little familiarity in later years) tended to vary in quantity despatched on a seasonal basis (logical) and sometimes also on a  geographical basis (e.g all the Midlands stuff would go on Monday, West Country stuff on Wednesday - not exactly thus bit that gives an idea, and they weren't the only ones to do that.  Many small factories despatching smalls also peaked on certain days of the week, for example Berlei (whose smalls went Passenger Rated if you follow my drift) tended to despatch much greater quantities towards the end of the working week while ladybird also had peaks but overall had much higher daily forwardings.

 

You can also resolve parts of the smalls situation by doing the same as BR did and having mandatory vans where a  depot would make a nominated number of vans for named destinations on various days - any surplus would simply be cancelled if there was enough traffic for them and be held back a day.

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Thanks Mike.

 

I can see where you're coming from.

 

I realised a little while ago that the original ideas leant a little towards having a routine originating point for consignments - the wagon used might change but the consignment always left station ABC.

 

That was fine for the warehouse/factory/brewery which would probably have a limited range of "out" traffic but seemed too "corridored" for other traffic.

 

I've probably gone too far the other way now because neither origin or destination are currently fixed. Mind you other than the grain wagons for the brewery I don't currently envisage any movement restrictions on wagon load vehicles.

 

I'll have to think a bit more about that.

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The one restriction you can bear in mind Ray is the limits on what they receiving station can deal with.  These were usually imposed by cranage capacity (although mobile cranes could be brought in, usually from the Divisional float held at major depots) and end or side loading ability.  Obviously loading gauge issues could become apparent with unusual things but that wouldn't impact you.

 

And don't forget the principle of re-forwarding if, say, you don't have the right cranage capacity and can't get it but it's available nearby.

 

Effectively your off-scene points of origina and destination are only limted by the contemporaneous rail network but soem thinsg might be a given - such as receiving X tons of coal weekly (or even more during the summer and nowhere to unload it).

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This is highly ingenious with loads of interesting wrinkles (unloading time especially cute) but I think the coding stuff may be a tad over-complicated.  When I steal your idea for the Last Great Project, I think I will simply have many more singled-sided consignment cards which directly specify origin and destination (at siding level where these relate to a modelled yard) and are returned to the deck once delivered/unloaded, dealing a given number at the start of each session to add to any existing unsatisfied requirements.  This would avoid things like milk to somewhere that can't handle it, your example above - thinking about it, there will be many more implausible combinations than plausible ones.  It would also mean you didn't have to explain to your operators how to use your Enigma machine!

 

Great thinking though ......  :sungum:

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Thanks for your comments. I'm hoping that readers may spot any things that I've not thought of.

 

Your suggestion potentially sees the same load moving between the same two stations.

 

Do you have any ideas how you will cope with situations where there isn't a suitable wagon to convey a load?

 

Do you intend to throw in b*ggeration factors to delay wagons in sidings?

 

I'm hoping my ideas won't be as complicated as they look. Other than movement of cards with trains, the only technical bit is between timetable days when cards are moved from one stack to another.

 

True there is a look up table but I use something similar on another railway and it isn't too hard to grasp.

 

Good luck whichever way you go.

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Thanks for your comments. I'm hoping that readers may spot any things that I've not thought of.

 

Your suggestion potentially sees the same load moving between the same two stations.

 

Do you have any ideas how you will cope with situations where there isn't a suitable wagon to convey a load?

 

Do you intend to throw in b*ggeration factors to delay wagons in sidings?

 

I'm hoping my ideas won't be as complicated as they look. Other than movement of cards with trains, the only technical bit is between timetable days when cards are moved from one stack to another.

 

True there is a look up table but I use something similar on another railway and it isn't too hard to grasp.

 

Good luck whichever way you go.

 

No worries, purposeful shunting while watching through trains go by is what I want to achieve, so any suggested way of making the shunting realistic and unpredictable is interesting to me.  The idea of moving loads instead of just wagons was the lightbulb moment reading your ideas.

 

Yes, the same load will often make the same move but that's basically what happens in real life, isn't it - the same raw materials delivered regularly to the same factories from the same sources, then the same manufactured goods despatched regularly to the same distribution centre?  So quite a few identical cards for things that will happen often (coal from "North" to station1 coal staithes), maybe some "daily" cards which are always included in every session's new deal (milk from station2 creamery to "South"), and just one instance of the card requiring an unusual move (tractor from David Brown's Huddersfield factory (i.e. "North" fiddle yard) to branch terminus FY on conflat etc)?  Maybe include a way of generating a small number of totally random movements, but I don't think everything should be random.

 

 Your "wired for" system and unloading delays will be amongst the items I steal :yes:.

 

First off though, I need planning permission .....   

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No worries, purposeful shunting while watching through trains go by is what I want to achieve, so any suggested way of making the shunting realistic and unpredictable is interesting to me.  The idea of moving loads instead of just wagons was the lightbulb moment reading your ideas.

 

Yes, the same load will often make the same move but that's basically what happens in real life, isn't it - the same raw materials delivered regularly to the same factories from the same sources, then the same manufactured goods despatched regularly to the same distribution centre?  So quite a few identical cards for things that will happen often (coal from "North" to station1 coal staithes), maybe some "daily" cards which are always included in every session's new deal (milk from station2 creamery to "South"), and just one instance of the card requiring an unusual move (tractor from David Brown's Huddersfield factory (i.e. "North" fiddle yard) to branch terminus FY on conflat etc)?  Maybe include a way of generating a small number of totally random movements, but I don't think everything should be random.

 

 Your "wired for" system and unloading delays will be amongst the items I steal :yes:.

 

First off though, I need planning permission .....   

The same things might pass but not necessarily in the same quantities and of course the wagons in which 'stuff' arrives might not necessarily be those in which stuff is despatched.   Apart from which the total numbers of inwards and outwards wagons are very unlikely to agree.

 

This is where a consignment based system can score over one based solely on wagon movements because whilst it drives the number and nature of wagon movements it can, and realistically should, result in imbalances, shortages & surpluses of wagons and over-crowded yards.  Put in some blanks among the consignment cards which will crop up on a random basis, put in some bigger or smaller than normal consignments and you get a more lifelike traffic flow.

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I like the consignment idea, much more realistic than just shuffling wagons. I have to confess to not really following your scheme though.

And I have another complication - have you included for seasonal gluts (eg the annual candyfloss harvest, or the high demand for cheap cider at the start of the school holidays)?

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I like the consignment idea, much more realistic than just shuffling wagons. I have to confess to not really following your scheme though.

And I have another complication - have you included for seasonal gluts (eg the annual candyfloss harvest, or the high demand for cheap cider at the start of the school holidays)?

I'm happy to try clarifying anything about the idea that people don't understand. Working through it may throw up areas that have not been covered which would be good.

 

Seasonal traffic could be catered for by adding (or removing) some extra consignments to the "pack" as required. They could be printed on coloured card to facilitate their easier removal at the end of the season. That said, presumably seasonal traffic would either be included or excluded on a permanent basis because the scenic aspects will limit the period of operation to a set time of year.

 

The mention of colour has set me thinking following the earlier comment about the "Enigma" code!

 

Coloured consignment cards could be used to replace the destination code - the look-up table indicating which colour cards are for which destination (station). I'd only need five colours for this as there are only five locations on the layout. Visiting operators would simply be told that cards of a certain colour are to be detached from the train at their station.

 

Likewise, the consignment card could show the destination (siding) in the body of the card's details - e.g. "Six sacks of grain to M2" where "M2" equates to the siding berth at the destination. "M2" may be a distinct siding berth at one station or part of a berth to which several codes equate at the other station.

 

For those that don't like the supplementary codes idea the consignment cards could have a numeric watermark printed on the card or a caption under the destination that states "Unloading Allowance - 3 days".

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