00-SF and 00-BF? Can you mix?

[Jintyman]

Hi all,

 

I've recently started to build my own track, after getting to grips with Templot, copper clad soldered construction turnouts, C&L Finescale flexi, and their concrete FB track units.

 

I purchased my first lot of track building materials from Marcway, and with it, OO-BF gauges. The points I've constructed in both FB and BH rail are long and smooth as I have a decent sized area to utilise them. After looking at various track building and finished turnouts on here, I would prefer OO-SF with its 1mm flangeways. My Question is: Can I now purchase the OO-SF gauges from C&L and make any further points with the finer flangeways and mix them with the ones I've already built from a running point of view?

I've already laid and ballasted the first trailing crossover in place with the OO-BF settings, the next point along will be a good 16" away till you get to the frog area, so the eye shouldn't notice the different aesthetics!!!

 

 

 

As you can see the turnouts are quite long, so hopefully the difference won't be too noticeable!!

 

Jinty ;-)

[martin_wynne]

My Question is: Can I now purchase the OO-SF gauges from C&L and make any further points with the finer flangeways and mix them with the ones I've already built from a running point of view?

 

Hi Jinty,

 

Yes, you can mix them up as much as you like. And also use Peco turnouts if you wish. The point is that all these use the same wheels, so you can use any of them together and the wheels will still run over all of them.

 

Having said that, the 00-SF turnouts will give you smoother running, but require a bit more checking of wheels to ensure they comply with the standard. If you have some rogue wheelsets which don't, you may find that they run acceptably over the 00-BF turnouts but not over the 00-SF turnouts.

 

For 00-SF the back-to-back should not be less than 14.3mm. The standard for RTR wheels is 14.4mm. For kit wheels it is 14.5mm.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Arthur]

Perhaps I can add in a question here. What gauges are required, either essential or just helpful, to build 00-SF track? A quick look on the C&L website revealed a 3 point gauge and two check gauges, one 15.2 mm and one 16.2 mm both with 1mm flangeways. Any advice greatly appreciated.

[martin_wynne]

Perhaps I can add in a question here. What gauges are required, either essential or just helpful, to build 00-SF track? A quick look on the C&L website revealed a 3 point gauge and two check gauges, one 15.2 mm and one 16.2 mm both with 1mm flangeways. Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

Hi Arthur,

 

The essential indispensable gauges are are a set of two 15.2mm check rail gauges. These are used to set the check rails, which must be exactly that dimension from the opposite running rail. The C&L label is misleading -- these do not set the 1.0mm flangeways. One slot fits the running rail and one slot fits the opposite check rail.

 

Next in importance you need something 1.0mm thick to set the crossing flangeway gaps (frog gaps). A suitable piece of metal shim should be available from C&L, and also from the EM Gauge Society, or you could use car spark-plug feeler gauges. Don't use this to set the check rail gaps, it is for the crossing (frog) only. At a push you could use a piece of 40 thou plastic card.

 

Next you need the 16.2mm roller track gauges for the running rails. At least two, and preferably more. Again, the C&L label is misleading -- these do not set the 1.0mm flangeways. One slot fits one running rail and the other slot fits the other running rail. None of the gauges have more than two slots.

 

If you intend using curves less than about 750mm or 30" radius, the 16.2mm 3-point gauges are useful because they automatically add some progressive gauge-widening. If you are not using curves that sharp you don't need them. If you already have some 16.5mm roller gauges you could use those instead to provide fixed gauge-widening on sharp curves.

 

None of this is specific to 00-SF, the same principles apply to all trackbuilding in all scales and gauges.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[TexChem]

Hi Arthur,

 

The essential indispensable gauges are are a set of two 15.2mm check rail gauges. These are used to set the check rails, which must be exactly that dimension from the opposite running rail. The C&L label is misleading -- these do not set the 1.0mm flangeways. One slot fits the running rail and one slot fits the opposite check rail.

 

Next in importance you need something 1.0mm thick to set the crossing flangeway gaps (frog gaps). A suitable piece of metal shim should be available from C&L, and also from the EM Gauge Society. Don't use this to set the check rail gaps, it is for the crossing (frog) only. At a push you could use a piece of 40 thou plastic card.

 

Next you need the 16.2mm track gauges for the running rails. At least two, and preferably more. Again, the C&L label is misleading -- these do not set the 1.0mm flangeways. One slot fits one running rail and the other slot fits the other running rail. None of the gauges have more than two slots.

 

If you intend using curves less than about 750mm or 30" radius, the 16.2mm 3-point gauges are useful because they automatically add some progressive gauge-widening. If you are not using curves that sharp you don't need them. If you already have some 16.5mm roller gauges you could use those instead to provide fixed gauge-widening on sharp curves.

 

None of this is specific to 00-SF, the same principles apply to all trackbuilding in all scales and gauges.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

I just bought some gauges from C&L, regular 16.5 mm. There are two slots on each side, what are the inner ones for?

[martin_wynne]

I just bought some gauges from C&L, regular 16.5 mm. There are two slots on each side, what are the inner ones for?

 

Those are for the DOGA-Fine standard (16.5mm track gauge with 1.0mm flangeways).

 

To use track built to that standard you will need to widen the wheel back-to-backs on your models to 14.7mm (for RTR wheels) or 14.8mm (for kit wheels). The C&L back-to-back gauge is for 14.8mm for DOGA-Fine for this purpose. edit: see posts below

 

Note that after modifying your wheels to DOGA-Fine they won't run properly on regular 00 tracks.

 

Unfortunately C&L do not make any of this clear on their web site (we have been here before). They include the same gauges in their turnout kits. If you did not intend to build track to the DOGA-Fine standard you may want to return these gauges to C&L.

 

The model trade love the multi-slot roller gauges for 00. They are intended to include the check rail and crossing flangeway gauges in a single gauge. These are difficult to use and undesirable because:

 

1. It is impossible to provide any gauge-widening on sharp curves. Where there is gauge-widening the check rail gap should increase by the same amount as the gauge, and this is impossible to do using multi-slot gauges.

 

2. If there is a problem with the track and the gauge won't fit, it is impossible to determine which rail is in error.

 

A proper set of gauges provides separate gauges for the check rails and the running rails, each with only two slots. These make it possible to set the check rails correctly independently of the running rails, and with only two slots make it possible to test each rail afterwards for correct position. Such sets of gauges are available for 00-SF from C&L and also for EM and P4 from the EM Gauge Society and Scalefour Society.

 

For 00-BF the check gauge is the same as for 00-SF, so you can use the 00-SF check rail gauges for 00-BF and ignore the inner slots on 16.5mm roller gauges. For 00-BF you would also need a 1.3mm shim for setting the crossing flangeway gaps (frog gaps).

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

ref: 00SFGAUGES

[TexChem]

Those are for the DOGA-Fine standard (16.5mm track gauge with 1.0mm flangeways).

 

To use track built to that standard you will need to widen the wheel back-to-backs on your models to 14.7mm (for RTR wheels) or 14.8mm (for kit wheels). The C&L back-to-back gauge is for 14.8mm for DOGA-Fine for this purpose.

 

Note that after modifying your wheels to DOGA-Fine they won't run properly on regular 00 tracks.

 

Unfortunately C&L do not make any of this clear on their web site (we have been here before). They include the same gauges in their turnout kits. If you did not intend to build track to the DOGA-Fine standard you may want to return these gauges to C&L.

 

The model trade love the multi-slot roller gauges for 00. They are intended to include the check rail and crossing flangeway gauges in a single gauge. These are difficult to use and undesirable because:

 

1. It is impossible to provide any gauge-widening on sharp curves. Where there is gauge-widening the check rail gap should increase by the same amount as the gauge, and this is impossible to do using multi-slot gauges.

 

2. If there is a problem with the track and the gauge won't fit, it is impossible to determine which rail is in error.

 

A proper set of gauges provides separate gauges for the check rails and the running rails, each with only two slots. These make it possible to set the check rails correctly independently of the running rails, and with only two slots make it possible to test each rail afterwards for correct position. Such sets of gauges are available for 00-SF from C&L and also for EM and P4 from the EM Gauge Society and Scalefour Society.

 

For 00-BF the check gauge is the same as for 00-SF, so you can use the 00-SF check rail gauges for 00-BF and ignore the inner slots on 16.5mm roller gauges. For 00-BF you would also need a 1.3mm shim for setting the crossing flangeway gaps (frog gaps).

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

Thanks for your response. I do appreciate your patience and clear answers to all of the questions that come up in these threads. I am planning on building to DOGA fine standards, so I believe I have the correct gauges. I'm located in Texas so I don't believe there will be many opportunities to run my stock on other layouts, maybe wrong about that.

 

For any of you,

 

I also purchased the B2B gauge from C&L and it is their regular OO one, not the one for SF. The one I recieved is 14.5 mm, measured with two different verniers, if I understood you correctly this will result in the B2Bs being too small for DOGA fine?

 

Thanks,

 

Texchem

ref: 00SFGAUGES

[martin_wynne]

I also purchased the B2B gauge from C&L and it is their regular OO one, not the one for SF. The one I recieved is 14.5 mm, measured with two different verniers, if I understood you correctly this will result in the B2Bs being too small for DOGA fine?

 

Hi Texchem,

 

Yes it will be too small. For DOGA Fine the span across the check rail and wing rail is 14.5mm (i.e. 16.5 - 1.0 - 1.0). So if the wheels are exactly the same distance apart they will bind or jam on those rails. They would need to be at least 14.6mm apart to run freely.

 

It's very puzzling, because I'm sure C&L were previously supplying 14.8mm back-to-back gauges and stated as such on their web site. On their web site now the actual size isn't specified. If they are now supplying 14.5mm back-to-back gauges, it means these are no longer compatible with their standard 00 track gauges for DOGA Fine.

 

It really is not surprising that 00 modellers get in such a muddle.

 

Back-to-back gauges for DOGA Fine are listed by DOGA -- http://www.doubleogauge.com/shop.htm

 

I have no information about these -- the DOGA Fine standards specify 14.8mm minimum, see: http://www.doubleogauge.com/standards/finescalewheels.htm

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Texchem

 

If you have not started building the turnouts an crossings yet, I would strongly suggest that you use 00sf standards. Most using these standards only use the 16.2 gauge through the crossing part and widen out the gauge where it connects with the plain flexi track. Your gauges will be used on the outer parts, the time and trouble you will save in not having to alter the back to back is well worth the cost of 2 pairs of gauges

[dasatcopthorne]

Texchem.

 

Take it from me. Stick to 00-SF around the turnouts and leave your wheels' BTBs alone. If you do wish to play with your BTBs, open them out to 14.5 wherever possible. This will help at the turnout blade ends.

 

A word of warning to all. I have a 2 couple of recent Hornby diesels (Class 50 & 31) where the the BTBs have been 14.2! Not acceptable but easily corrected, thank goodness.

 

If you haven't already and want to see an 00-SF layout go to the 'Layouts' sub-directory and search for 'Falcon Road TMD and Oil Drum Lane'.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi all,

 

I've recently started to build my own track, after getting to grips with Templot, copper clad soldered construction turnouts, C&L Finescale flexi, and their concrete FB track units.

 

I purchased my first lot of track building materials from Marcway, and with it, OO-BF gauges. The points I've constructed in both FB and BH rail are long and smooth as I have a decent sized area to utilise them. After looking at various track building and finished turnouts on here, I would prefer OO-SF with its 1mm flangeways. My Question is: Can I now purchase the OO-SF gauges from C&L and make any further points with the finer flangeways and mix them with the ones I've already built from a running point of view?

I've already laid and ballasted the first trailing crossover in place with the OO-BF settings, the next point along will be a good 16" away till you get to the frog area, so the eye shouldn't notice the different aesthetics!!!

 

 

 

As you can see the turnouts are quite long, so hopefully the difference won't be too noticeable!!

 

Jinty ;-)

 

Hi Jintyman.

 

Here's how I build my turnouts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dave

[martin_wynne]

More evidence of the confusion caused by C&L with their DOGA-Fine gauges. Lee is having problems building a 3-way tandem turnout:

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64736-my-detailingrepainting-projects/&do=findComment&comment=1744756

 

Martin.

[blueeighties]

Indeed it is! One buys a turnout kit described as 00 gauge 16.5mm, and now I'm told the track gauges supplied will not set the correct check railgap. This seems like blatant mis selling to me, these kits are not bloody cheap either. Had I have known this, I would have probably made tbe decision to build it to 00sf standards, with the required 1mm check rail gaps that the supplied gauges set. I shall take this up with C and L, a d trading standards if necessary.

As an aside, surely if these gauges are to doga standards then C and L must be getting inundated with irate customers who can't get correct running through their newly constructed point kits?

[martin_wynne]

Indeed it is! One buys a turnout kit described as 00 gauge 16.5mm, and now I'm told the track gauges supplied will not set the correct check railgap. This seems like blatant mis selling to me, these kits are not bloody cheap either. Had I have known this, I would have probably made tbe decision to build it to 00sf standards, with the required 1mm check rail gaps that the supplied gauges set. I shall take this up with C and L, a d trading standards if necessary.

As an aside, surely if these gauges are to doga standards then C and L must be getting inundated with irate customers who can't get correct running through their newly constructed point kits?

 

Hi Lee,

 

Before you get too irate you need to check exactly what you have been supplied with. i.e. measure the flangeway gaps in the crossings and measure the dimensions of the track gauges.

 

Unfortunately the C&L full kits tend to be purchased by beginners, so if they find them not working they are more likely to blame their own failings rather than the kit. More experienced trackbuilders just buy the bits they need.

 

Also, C&L were supplying 14.8mm back-to-back gauges, so they could reasonably say that if the wheels were widened to those gauges, they run fine through the turnouts. Nowhere do they actually say that 00 RTR models will run through them out of the box with unmodified wheels. It's a reasonable assumption by any buyer, but unless they actually say so I doubt that trading standards will be able to do much -- or even understand what you are talking about.

 

However, if C&L are now supplying 14.5mm back-to-back gauges (see above) you are on much firmer ground, because wheels set to 14.5mm won't run through DOGA-Fine turnouts without binding on the check rails.

 

The annoying thing about all this is that C&L also stock the 00-SF gauges. So all they have to do is 1. offer the buyer a choice between DOGA-Fine or 00-SF gauges in the kits, and 2. properly explain the difference. One needs widened RTR wheels and the other doesn't.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[blueeighties]

I have had dabblings with trackbuilding before, I even purchased a set of 00 sf gauges at one point as I thought better running, improved flange rail gaps and no wheel replacements were ideal. However I just couldn't crack the construction of common crossings. I thought I would ease myself back into it via the easier option of a kit to get back into the swing of things, and gain a bit of confidence prior to trying again with raw components. Today's discussions regarding the inconsistencies of these kits is annoying and confusing.

I'll attempt to measure the C and L supplied gauges this weekend to see exactly what we have.

[martin_wynne]

Hi Lee,

 

If you have a set of 00-SF gauges why not simply discard the DOGA-Fine gauges and build the kits using the 00-SF gauges? If the C&L crossings are suitable for EM then they are also suitable for 00-SF (1.0mm flangeways).

 

Ideally on 00-SF templates printed from Templot, but for plain turnouts you can build using 00-SF gauges on the C&L templates in the kits if you prefer.

 

Note that for diamond-crossings and slips it is important to print new 00-SF templates from Templot, because the gauge difference -- 16.2mm instead of 16.5mm -- means they will be slightly shorter. The rails won't line up if you use 00-SF gauges on the C&L templates for diamond-crossings and slips.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Jintyman]

This OO-SF and DOGA thing is very ambiguous to say the least, treading carefully is good practice I think.

Thank you Martin, I appreciate your input, OO-SF it will be from now on.

 

On another note, can someone enlighten me as to what this tool is called and where I may get one from please?

 

 

Also, I've seen something similar to these before, but again, what are they called please, and can you get cosmetic chairs to disguise the area after assembly?

 

 

Thanks again all

 

Jinty ;-)

[blueeighties]

Hi Lee,

 

If you have a set of 00-SF gauges why not simply discard the DOGA-Fine gauges and build the kits using the 00-SF gauges? If the C&L crossings are suitable for EM then they are also suitable for 00-SF (1.0mm flangeways).

 

Ideally on 00-SF templates printed from Templot, but for plain turnouts you can build using 00-SF gauges on the C&L templates in the kits if you prefer.

 

Note that for diamond-crossings and slips it is important to print new 00-SF templates from Templot, because the gauge difference -- 16.2mm instead of 16.5mm -- means they will be slightly shorter. The rails won't line up if you use 00-SF gauges on the C&L templates for diamond-crossings and slips.

 

regards,

 

 

 

 

Sorry Martin I should have said...at the time I went down a different path and actually sold the 00sf gauges on.

 

Martin.

[trustytrev]

I have had dabblings with trackbuilding before, I even purchased a set of 00 sf gauges at one point as I thought better running, improved flange rail gaps and no wheel replacements were ideal. However I just couldn't crack the construction of common crossings. I thought I would ease myself back into it via the easier option of a kit to get back into the swing of things, and gain a bit of confidence prior to trying again with raw components. Today's discussions regarding the inconsistencies of these kits is annoying and confusing.

I'll attempt to measure the C and L supplied gauges this weekend to see exactly what we have.

Hello,

      I remember reading your articles when you had a go at hand built track  and you decided it wasn't for you. I think the differences between the various oo gauge standards were in the public domain at that time but were difficult to pin down.   I think a lot of that was due to the misinformation that was being bandied around at the time and what I would call the "Gauge Wars" leading to much confusion and misunderstanding. Martin has always shone a light on these differences all along but his efforts have often been shouted down by others with their own agendas it would seem.

trustytrev.

[trustytrev]

This OO-SF and DOGA thing is very ambiguous to say the least, treading carefully is good practice I think.

Thank you Martin, I appreciate your input, OO-SF it will be from now on.

 

On another note, can someone enlighten me as to what this tool is called and where I may get one from please?

 

Point work 1.jpg

 

Also, I've seen something similar to these before, but again, what are they called please, and can you get cosmetic chairs to disguise the area after assembly?

 

Pointwork 2.jpg

 

Thanks again all

 

Jinty ;-)

Hello,

        It is a crossing(correction) filing jig available from the  EM gauge society along with other tools like the switch filing jig. The rivets are also available from the same source. Cut plastic chairs in half and glue either side. "An approach to building finescale track." by Iain Rice is really informative.

trustytrev.

[martin_wynne]

This OO-SF and DOGA thing is very ambiguous to say the least, treading carefully is good practice I think.

Thank you Martin, I appreciate your input, OO-SF it will be from now on.

 

On another note, can someone enlighten me as to what this tool is called and where I may get one from please?

 

Point work 1.jpg

 

Also, I've seen something similar to these before, but again, what are they called please, and can you get cosmetic chairs to disguise the area after assembly?

 

Pointwork 2.jpg

 

 

 

Hi Jinty,

 

The first one is a filing jig for vee rails. They are expensive and only cover a few fixed angles. They are available from the EM Gauge Society* and possibly elsewhere, although supplies can be erratic.

 

The rivets are called "Brook-Smith" track rivets, again from the EM Gauge Society (copper) or the Scalefour Society (brass). You want the ones with 2.0mm diameter head. (2.5mm are also available). Note that they can only be used with 1/32" or 1.0mm ply sleepers, not the thicker ones.

 

For cosmetic chairs simply cut the ordinary plastic chairs in half and fit them round the rivets. To this end use the minimum of solder on them -- 179degree solder cream is good.

 

*Items from the societies are available by mail order only to members, but to anyone at their shows.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Jintyman]

 

Thank you Trev and Martin,

 

I don't think the filing Jig is for me, nor are the track rivets, as I'm currently using 1.6mm copperclad and C&L Flexitrack, and concrete track panels.

I'll happily continue with my current methods, but convert to OO-SF.

 

Thanks again

 

Jinty ;-)

[dasatcopthorne]

This OO-SF and DOGA thing is very ambiguous to say the least, treading carefully is good practice I think.

Thank you Martin, I appreciate your input, OO-SF it will be from now on.

 

On another note, can someone enlighten me as to what this tool is called and where I may get one from please?

 

Point work 1.jpg

 

Also, I've seen something similar to these before, but again, what are they called please, and can you get cosmetic chairs to disguise the area after assembly?

 

Pointwork 2.jpg

 

Thanks again all

 

Jinty ;-)

 

Hi Jinyman.

 

Sorry to leave you with more questions following my post.

 

As others have already said, the gauge is a crossing filing gauge. It came my way when a friend gave up P4 track building.

It's not somehting a would have bought myself and I don't use it much at all.

 

 

Re the crossing V:

after laying the straightest of the two stock rails, I then file up the adjacent rail for the crossing (frog) I fit that temporarilly and then file the second crossing rail. The most important thing, I find, is to get the two angles correct (or nearly correct) to form the nose. File the angles on the ends of a long pieces of rail (ready curved where necessary). This will allow you the make sure the rail lays in the right position on your plan and get the angle correct. Once you have the angle correct, cut the rail to length.

 

I guess you've had a look at the various diagrams etc. available on-line but, in case you haven't realised it, the  angled face on the first crossing rail forms the running face for wheels taking the opposite track. Sorry if you already know this but some builders think that both rails are filed to a 'common' point at the nose. Does that make sense I ask myself? I think it does.

 

I've attached a picture of a badly made V that shows how the two pieces of rail fit together.

 

I hope I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs here! Sorry if I am and you already know all this.

 

Lastly, if you haven't Templot, get it. It's invaluable. True it doesn't work like most Windows programs but forget that and just 'play' with it to get started.

 

Dave

 

[hayfield]

Hi Lee,

 

If you have a set of 00-SF gauges why not simply discard the DOGA-Fine gauges and build the kits using the 00-SF gauges? If the C&L crossings are suitable for EM then they are also suitable for 00-SF (1.0mm flangeways).

 

Ideally on 00-SF templates printed from Templot, but for plain turnouts you can build using 00-SF gauges on the C&L templates in the kits if you prefer.

 

Note that for diamond-crossings and slips it is important to print new 00-SF templates from Templot, because the gauge difference -- 16.2mm instead of 16.5mm -- means they will be slightly shorter. The rails won't line up if you use 00-SF gauges on the C&L templates for diamond-crossings and slips.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

 

My biggest complaint is on the availability of decent track gauges, why cant we just have the slots for the stock rails. Also wing rail gauges, only available from the society stores. I like the flat Peco gauges and now have a pair I can tape together to make an A frame. This is the time I wished I was an engineer so I could turn up a set to a decent size, also be able to mill some flat gauges etc. We need a gauge shop !! 

[martin_wynne]

Also wing rail gauges, only available from the society stores.

 

Hi John,

 

Use car spark-plug feeler gauges -- you can make up whatever combination of thicknesses you want, and the metric sets normally include a 1.0mm feeler. Remove or drill out the rivet to get loose shims:

 

 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Toolzone-13-Blade-Feeler-Gauge/dp/B002NH4E8M/ref=sr_1_1

 

Available from car accessory shops everywhere. Cheap enough to buy two or three.

 

Martin.