7016 'Chester Castle' South Wales Pullman (1958)

[Forester]

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PULLMAN COACH COLOURS

 

As for the colour of the side panels. Umber brown is correct for the lower portions, doors, etc. while the window panels are described as white or cream. In fact, the cream came from the varnishing of the white panels, turning them a varnish yellow (a.k.a. 'cream'), as well as accumulated soot and dirt.

Antony Ford describes Pullman Car body colours in Volume One of his Pullman Profile series:

 

The "Old Standard" colours from 1908 to1929 are stated as "Umber below the waist, cream (or ivory white) above the waist". However from 1910 to 1929 the "South Eastern & Chatham Railway cars were a rich crimson all over outlined in gold leaf"

 

From 1929 the "New Standard" colours were "umber below the waist, cream above the waist but with umber fascia boards", except for the war years.

 

The South Wales Pullman cars were certainly painted cream before varnishing, which admittedly may have darkened the colour but not by much. The mustard colour of the old Hornby pullmans was definitely wrong, their later second attempt much better. The newer lighted ones are not quite cream enough according to my memories but close enough and commendably standard across the range.

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks Forester,

That's most helpful. Especially as, from your PMs, you've actually seen and travelled on these Pullman trains. We won't get better than eye-witness information!

 

My earlier comment on the varnish being what made carriage side panels 'cream' is based upon the colours used for Blood & Custard and, later, Western Region's revivalist use of GWR-like Chocolate & Cream in the British Railways period. My understanding is that they were painted Crimson-or-Chocolate and WHITE, to which a layer of varnish was then applied. This also tallies with references to official decisions of the Pullman company to adopt the Umber brown and what's usually stated to be "white or cream" livery. As a professional artist, I can tell you that the white paint of the period would have quickly turned to cream, especially if they used 'ivory white', as the pigments used and reaction of the varnish to the pollution of a coal-fired Britain took its inevitable effect. (Those of us who are old enough to remember the smogs of the 1960s - when, walking to school, you couldn't see more than a couple of feet in front of you - can well imagine the effects of coal burning pollution of earlier eras.) In particular, varnishes of the 1950s were very prone to turning a deep brown, from age, pollution, and exposure to sunlight. Also, don't forget, the reason that the newly nationalised railways, under the new British Railways company, decided to abandon Blood & Custard, was mainly because it wasn't practical to keep those white/cream panels clean. So, the shade of 'cream' wasn't something selected from a Dulux colour chart, it would go from off white to ivory to Hornby's 'mustard' representations over a period of time. It all depends upon the age of the paintwork.

 

Sorry if I appear to be repeating myself, but I think it important that (particularly younger modellers) appreciate that complexities of period colour schemes, and how such knowledge can be used to enhance the accuracy of their models. One thing is certain, there is no single colour that is the one correct Pullman cream. Each batch of carriages would vary, depending on the amount of 'aging' of the varnish since it was last painted. And, re-varnishing, during maintenance in the carriage sheds, would really darken things! 

 

(As an aside, it's also important to remember that period 'smoking car' windows were tobacco tinted with a layer of tar, giving a sepia tint to the glass. This can be replicated with Tamiya glazes mixed with Humbrol 'Clear'. This is nicely set off by the crystal clear glazing of the few 'non smoking' compartments.)

 

So, getting back to Forester's eye-witness memories. I submit that we can take these as the 'averaged' shade, but a variation of creams would be expected amongst the eight or so carriages, depending upon when each was last painted, and how much exposure its paintwork has had to sunlight and pollution. All of which is useful in adding subtle variations to the detailing of the model coaches within the rake.

 

I'll take your expert eye-witness advice, Forrester, and make the majority of the coaches slightly darker than the latest representation of 'cream' offered by Hornby. One carriage will remain in it's paintshop fresh lighter colour, and a couple of others will be darker. As in the prototype, I'll airbrush brown (tinted) varnish layers, to gradually darken the creams. 

 

One final comment. Hornby's slightly too pale cream is 'correct to scale', as the true slightly browner cream would appear paler when seen from a distance. So, if we apply 'distance scaling', which always lightens any colour, then Hornby got it spot on. Unfortunately, in this case, it just 'feels' a smidgen too pale. 

 

Many thanks,

Rick

[teaky]

Some information culled from Antony Ford's Pullman Profile series of books.

 

None of these are 1958 but dates either side.

 

 

South Wales Pullman

06/55:  55, 171, 35, Diamond, Cecilia, Zena, Aurelia, 54

 

05/56:  55, Rosamund, Aurelia, Chloria, Diamond, 303, 169, 54

 

07/60:  54, 171, 35, Diamond, Cecilia, Zena, 27

 

09/60:  54, 169, 35, Diamond, Chloria, Rosamund, Cecilia, 27

 

Car types:

 

55, 54 & 27:  K-type brakes.

 

171, 169:  K-type 30-seat kitchen.

 

35:  K-type 54-seat parlour.

 

Diamond (The Daffodil Bar), Cecilia, Chloria, Aurelia, Rosamund:  K-type 22-seat kitchen.

 

Zena:  all-steel K-type parlour.

 

303:  1951 new build.

 

 

This is just the basic information.  There are lots of minor detail variations resulting from cars being built by different manufacturers in different years, rebuilds, moving from one railway company to another etc. etc.

[70021 Morning Star]

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PULLMAN COACHES IN THE  AUGUST 1958 SOUTH WALES PULLMAN

 

 

Teaky,
You're a Star !
 
...as is Forester, an all rmweb contributors.
 
You've answered a question that was bothering me. Yes, we had a list of the carriages, but would they all have appeared in the formation at any one time? Also, there was no mention of the Diamond, "Daffodil", bar.  
 
So, contenders for the 8 car formation of Pullman coaches that are seen on both sides of 1958 are:

• "Daffodil" Diamond bar
• Cecilia & Rosamund, 1st Kitchens
• 169 & 171, 3rd Kitchens
• Zena, 1st Parlour
• 35, 3rd Parlour
• 54, K-type Brake
• plus, either 54 or 27, K-type Brake.

June 1955 formation is: 3rdBrake, 3rdKitchen, 3rdParlour, DaffodilBar, 1stKitchen, 1stParlour, 1stKitchen, 3rdBrake.
May 1956 formation is: 3rdBrake, 1stKitchen, 1stKitchen, 1stKitchen, DaffodilBar, 303Unknown3rdType, 3rdKitchen, 3rdBrake.
====================== 1958 =====================
July 1960 formation is: 3rdBrake, 3rdKitchen, 3rdParlour, DaffodilBar, 1stKitchen, 1stParlour, 3rdBrake. [Only 7 coaches.]
Sept   "     formation is: 3rdBrake, 3rdKitchen, 3rdParlour, DaffodilBar, 1stKitchen, 1stKitchen, 1stKitchen, 3rdBrake.
 
This would seem to suggest a probable August 1958 South Wales Pullman formation (starting from locomotive) of:

• Chester Castle & Hawksworth flat-sided tender, followed by...
• Car No.55 (confirmed) K-type 36/24 seat?? 3rd Brake (a.k.a. Guard Parlour) ..........preserved (awaiting rebuild) at Bluebell Railway
• Car No.169 (or 171)    K-type 30 seat 3rd Kitchen
• Car No.35                    K-type 54 seat 3rd Parlour ....................................................destroyed (fire) at Beaulieu Motor Museum, 1972
• Diamond*                    modified K-type 22 seat Kitchen, the "Daffodil" Bar
• Rosamund                  K-type 22 seat 1st Kitchen
• Zena                            All steel K-type ?? seat 1st Parlour .......................................operational at VSOE Stewarts Lane
• Cecilia                         K-type 22 seat 1st Kitchen
• Car No.54 (or 27)        K-type 36/24 seat?? 3rd Brake (Guard Parlour)

...which marries well with previously received information. Of course, each Kitchen serves a 1st or 3rd Parlour car, as well as its own passengers, and possibly a 3rd Guard Parlour. As Forester explained in a PM, the Pullmans were a rolling restaurant train, which is why so many Kitchens! The Bar serves everyone, 1st or 3rd; that's where you'll find me.  

 

*PrecisionLabels.com offer three different options for getting the correct transfer labels for the South Wales Pullman, these include what's needed for converting a  Hornby Kitchen to represent the Diamond DAFFODIL BAR. Worth a look. (Note: standard Pullman crest, not the stretched logo version, is correct for 1952 based photographic evidence.)

 

Now, it's back to fitting that loco-drive straight-sided Hawksworth tender shell to the Airfix tender-drive's tender. This is far more complex than expected, but she's now coaled with real coal, and only the enormous traction weight to remodel so it fits. I'm almost there; full report to follow...

 
Thanks,
Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

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CRAMMING A TENDER-DRIVE ENGINE AND TRACTION WEIGHT, INSIDE A LOCO-DRIVE BODY SHELL

 

Pictures 1 & 2*: This is how the tender is now looking: coal bunker modified and fully coaled with a sloping load of real coal; but still needing repainting, transfers applying, and a bit of weathering.

 

Picture 3: this is the enormous traction weight that needs to be squeezed back inside a body shell that includes a much deeper coal bunker than the original.

 

I've also got to replace those tapered GWR-type buffers with Chester Castle's BR Parallel barrel buffers, and there's a problem. The chassis mounts to the body with two locating pins that push into holes behind the existing buffers. I'm pretty sure that the replacement spring buffers have pins that protrude into these holes. So I'm expecting to need to create a new chassis locating system. ...is this something any of you have encountered? (Advice appreciated.)

 

"Challenging" doesn't begin to describe it !

 

*see if you can spot the fire irons tunnel in the first and second pictures. I'm impressed with Hornby's modelling of this Hawksworth tender.

 

Rick

 

 

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[70021 Morning Star]

After an hour in my freezing workshop, the traction weight is now trimmed to fit. Obviously, I'll need to replace that weight with lead sheet positioned and glued elsewhere in the tender.

 

The filler, glue and cut marks are tidied up with Artists' mars black acrylic, which is quite thick, and dries to a neat plastic finish. 

 

Rick 

 

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[70021 Morning Star]

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PROTOTYPICAL 8 INCHES CLOSE-COUPLING OF LOCOMOTIVE AND TENDER

Inspired by Ray, who says the original Airfix coupling is 17.5 of those French millimetres, I've also been working on fitting a similar design of true scale tender coupling, in nylon. The full scale tender sits 8 inches behind the Castle (measured between the tender/locomotive steps). I couldn't quite achieve this on the Airfix and still get around 3rd radius curves, but I'm hopeful to get away with 9". Anyway, if it's wrong, I'll blame Ray for not measuring properly ;-)
 
Ray has kindly supplied me with a couple of photographs of the manufacturer's coupling (reproduced below). This looks a bit like a spanner and, according to Ray, is 17.5mm from centre to centre.
 
My version is [missing ruler] mm centre to centre, giving a slightly out of scale 9" coupling mentioned above.
 
Pictures 1 & 2 are Ray's original Airfix coupling.
 
Picture 3 & 4 are the new Hawksworth flat-sided tender (still sitting a bit high at the front) coupled with my close-coupling, giving Chester Castle* an almost prototypical 9 inch (scaled) tender coupling. There's some play in the experimental coupling, allowing to to open to 10 scale inches, but closes to 9 inches under the 'push' of tender-drive; this play will be removed in the final version. (Note: that photo gives a distorted impression, due to slight wide-angle of lens making scale rule misread. I'll re do the photograph when I've tweaked the tender height.)

 

Picture 5: shows the original Airfix/Hornby coupling distance.

*nameplates and cab number are still 4098 Kidwelly Castle (does anyone want these plates? Free).
 
Thanks for the help with this, Ray,
 
Rick
 
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[70021 Morning Star]

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SOUNDTRACK FOR CHESTER CASTLE & THE SOUTH WALES PULLMAN THREAD

 

Visit http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/soundsgwr.htm, and suggest you select "Castle class no. 5029 'Nunney Castle' 39 seconds run time".

 

 

Enjoy,

 

Rick
 

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Rick

 

I do like the 'new' coal load - and the closer coupling.  I will need to think what to do with my owen tender now!  Busy stripping off lots of thick old varnish.  Seems like one step forward and two steps back at the moment.

 

Carry on the good work.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks for the kind words, Ray.
 
I've found out that part of the reason the tender was misaligned with the cab, was that she was photographed sitting on a bit of bent track (actually has a big hump in it) !  Duh... The tender was only sitting on 2 of its 6 wheels, with its nose in the air.
 
If you want your tender coaling, you could just post it to me. I've got a sack full of coal, and there's a particularly nice lump that's just asking to be dropped in an unsuspecting tender. They did use awfully BIG lumps on GWR/Western Region; or, I guess there might be some smaller bits knocking around in my 'washed and graded' coal tins...  ;-)
 
Surprised to see the Airfix Castle tender-drive has 6 rubber traction tyres. The Britannia has only 2, yet is capable of hauling eight Mk1 coaches.
 
Let me know if you'd like me to do the coaling,
Rick

[Coach bogie]

Just in case you are not aware, the Hawksworth tender has completely different frames to the Collett type from the the Airfix castle. The Hawksworth frames are based on the LMS design tenders for the Swindon built 8F.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Mike,
Yup, I spotted that only this afternoon. Thanks for pointing me to the correct frame.
 
I was thinking of upgrading the bottom of the tender to use Comet models type castings. I guess there are suitable bits available from the detailing parts suppliers?
 
Just for interest, see http://www.4930hagleyhall.org.uk/news/news.html, which has the real life story of a Collet-Hawksworth tender swap, along with some superb detail photographs.

Meanwhile, there's quite a long list of jobs awaiting my attention on 7016 Chester Castle, 70021 Morning Star and 92220 Evening Star, not to mention their respective coach formations. So, I'll 'wait out' on people's guidance on what framework detailing parts I'd best use. ...anyone, please advise?
 
Thanks,
Rick
 
 
P.S. Beginning to think you guys are telepathic. Just as I hit a snag, someone pops up with friendly advice. RMWEB is Brilliant !


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PICTURES

Are these pictures correct for the Hawksworth?

 

Collet to Hawksworth Frame, look like a plasticard remodelling might be a possibility.

[Coach bogie]

Could carve up this from Peter's Spares.

 

http://www.petersspares.com/Hornby-x8078-castle-county-tender-underframe-weight.ir

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks Mike,

Will order tomorrow...

 

Meanwhile, would these mechanical lubricators (pictured) be correct ?

 

And, does anyone know if the Castle class's wooden footplate (and the tender) had any chequerplating, or what the thingumyjigg, what bridges the loco and tender footplates looks like (I think it's curved chequerplate, but images of the floor areas are scarce)?

 

Thanks,

Rick

[Wenrash]

A question,

If the 7000 series(5098 Class) were built with mechanical lubricators, what is the cover on the LH smokebox covering in Goring photograph?

 

Richard

[naugytrax]

I believe the Hawksworth tender on the Dapol Castle is identical to the one on the Dapol County (although strictly it should be narrower). In any case, they both have the same semi-tapered buffers, which seem to be a compromise between the Collett tapers and the BR parallel. And they both present the chassis-fixing issue mentioned by 70021 MS. On my County, I didn't replace the buffers: instead, I corrected the shape. I cut short lengths of brass tube (3.5 mm OD, if I remember) to represent the outside of the shanks. Then I filed down the existing shanks until they were parallel and the pieces of tubing would slip over them. That way I didn't have to do anything about the chassis pins - they still went into the buffer holes.

[Silver Sidelines]

An 'Airfix' Hawksworth tender that never was (is).

 

Ray

 

[70021 Morning Star]

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MECHANICAL LUBRICATORS, INSIDE CYLINDER CASING**, WOODEN FOOTPLATES, BUFFERS, MUD HOLE COVRS, & SPARE LAMP STORAGE

 

The following pictures [not of 7016 Chester Castle] show detail of the Mechanical Lubricators (differing on each side*), that squared type Inside Cylinder Casing**, and the Spare Lamp Storage (on left side of locomotive). The parallel barrel buffers (BR type) have a small chequerplate, just visible, neatly mounted on the top. The final picture shows the depth of the Mud Hole Covers (top left) and that square plate (bottom right) mentioned in post #10.

 

*In the left side view, you can see two lamp brackets (on left) in front of the Lubricator pipework, as well as those little steps (which will benefit from a little paint-wear detailing) on the curved bodywork.

 

**Inside Cylinder Casing looks like they've added chequreplate, with an additional anti-slip ridge to the top step central plate of the three. This ____/] sort of shape. This anti-slip ridge is just (barely) visible in an oblique picture I have of 7016 Chester Castle.

 

With regard to the footplate. The pictures are of a Hall Class (looking towards the firebox). As the Hall was developed from the Castle class. I assume the footplates are pretty much the same?

 

==> Still no pictures of the fall plate as it bridges to the tender, or the tender's footplate? Can anyone help here, please?

 

 

Thanks,

Rick

 

____________

[70021 Morning Star]

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UNRESOLVED QUESTIONS - HELP NEEDED

 

Although, thanks to assistance from you guys, I'm getting closer in understanding what needs to be done to make a decent model from the Airfix, there's still several areas of uncertainty.

• What is the real world purpose of that mechanism that extends from the cab, passing behind the right-side nameplate. Reversing Rod?? (see picture)?
• It appears likely the footplate is wood with some chequerplate reinforcements. But, what do the 'fall plate' and the step of the tender look like? The picture shows the raised fall plate of a Hall Class, is that the same as the castle?
• Received information is that the 1958 South Wales Pullman did NOT have a locomotive headboard (I seem to recall reading this somewhere. It makes sense, because the Pullmans weren't really 'named trains' as such. They were a brand in their own right. In any case, those highly distinctive coaches would be enough to identify any Pullman service)?
• It turns out my Airfix is fitted with a real Brass metal funnel (which is coated in something to make it look like plastic) !  Only problem is that I've absolutely no idea which funnel this is! Can anyone please tell me the height for any of the funnels (standard or shorter, model or prototype)?  ==> Answer from Ray: "...the height of the [short] chimney of the 7000 series (post 1948 build) is given as 1ft 7ins plus a lip at the front of 1 3/4 ins. ...the height of the original chimney was 1ft 10in again plus a lip of 1 3/4 ins at the front." So, having established I have the correct height of chimney for 7016 Chester Castle, the horrible plastic paint has been removed to reveal a shiny bright GWR Cap, all polished up, as she'd have presented on the South Wales Pullman.

Many thanks,

Rick

 

________

[70021 Morning Star]

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AIRFIX BRASS GWR 'COPPER' CHIMNEY CAP

 

Why did Airfix fit a superb Brass GWR Chimney, then make it look like plastic ?!

 

See some very nice pictures of a Hall Class (a development of the Castle) on http://www.4930hagleyhall.org.uk/news/news.html (towards the bottom of a very interesting read) these include pictures of how Western Region locomotives would have presented, with gleaming paintwork and that GWR Copper chimney cap polished to perfection, when hauling prestigious passenger services.

 

Rick

 

________

PICTURES

• Looking like it's made of painted cheap plastic
• As Chester Castle would look, with her chimney cap all shined up, ready to haul the South Wales Pullman
• Ditto

As copper is slightly more yellow-orange than brass, I'll run an old school permanent Overhead Projector (OHP Staedtler Lumocolor, ref 317-4) lacquer pen over the polished brass, to make it look more coppery and prevent tarnishing.

[ozzyo]

A question,

If the 7000 series(5098 Class) were built with mechanical lubricators, what is the cover on the LH smokebox covering in Goring photograph?

 

Richard

 

What mess.# are you referring to?

[Coach bogie]

The copper cap colour is probably down to age. The Airfix produced Castles are now approaching 40 years old having been produced in 1976.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[70021 Morning Star]

Hi Mike, No, it was definitely a factory coating of some kind. I'm guessing, so the brass would look like copper. Anyway, as my Chester Castle is allocated to the South Wales Pullman, that nice shiny polished chimney is most appropriate :-). Quite strange the way they've mixed features from different versions of Castle locomotives. Still, it gives us modellers something to do. I'm expecting delivery of that Hawksworth chassis tomorrow. Thanks for suggesting it.

 

[uPDATE] ==> This evening, someone told me that older models, with brass chimneys, were sometimes electro-copper-plated. I've no idea if this is true, it is a possibility, but my Castle's chimney didn't appear plated, more like paint. Certainly, this is something to look out for. (Do I hear a rush of people hurrying to check their older models..?!)

 

Ozzyo, I think Richard ('wenrash') may have made the same mistake I did, where I thought it looked like a bucket or something in the image of 7016 taking on water at Goring troughs (posts #7 & #16). Old problem of interpreting digital images. Anyway, assuming my post #43 images of the mechanical lubricator (left and right side parts) are appropriate, I think we're good to go on that one. Cheers. 

 

Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

.
FETTLING THE HAWKSWORTH CHASSIS

The new Hawksworth tender chassis has just arrived from Pedro's Spares. It included a very fine water scoop. Ray wasn't kidding when he suggested that fettling might be more complex than I'd envisaged. Mike got it right saying I could "carve it up".

Interestingly, Pedro had over 10 of these chassis on Sunday evening. By Tuesday, he'd completely 'sold out'. Now that can't be normal. A sudden 1000% increase in sales of Hornby's "X8078 CASTLE / COUNTY TENDER UNDERFRAME & WEIGHT"! Kind of makes me wonder how many others are about to embark on a bit of Castle Class chassis fettling? (I like that word. 'Fettling', it rolls around the mouth, like a good real ale, and precisely encapsulates the task in hand. ;-) Perhaps I should just show the end result, and sell you 'Instruction Packs' on Ebay? ...anyway, as soon as I've finished my coffee, it's off to the workshop. I'll post how this goes a little later...

 

[Actually, seems Peter's Spares have 2 in stock. Just not showing on the system. Phone Peter if you want one.]

 

...back from the workshop. After careful examination of the new chassis it was clear I had two options. The simplest was to shave the outside of the original chassis, as thin as possible, then to cut out the side panels off the new chassis, and glue them in place. It'd work, but I preferred a more professional approach of modifying the new chassis, using parts from the original tender. (Send me a PM if you'd like more details of what to do. The 1st option is easy, but the way I did it requires some careful and very precise use of a cutting disc.) 

 

Note: if you look carefully, you'll see that the tender frame is intended to have some brake framework fitted - those holes in the arms reaching down - the part number for this is Hornby X4070; it supplies parts for both the Castle class locomotive and the tender, available from various suppliers.

See the pictures, below.

Rick

 

____________

PICTURES

1. The front of the new chassis is removed, and the corresponding section of the old chassis cut to fit.
2. The cross piece that attaches the old frame to the engine was cut out, and recesses made in the new chassis.
3. With the reused parts attached to the new chassis frame.
4. The new chassis frame fitted into the Hawksworth body shell.
5. X4070 brake parts pack.

[unclebobkt]

.

PROTOTYPICAL 8 INCHES CLOSE-COUPLING OF LOCOMOTIVE AND TENDER

 

Inspired by Ray, who says the original Airfix coupling is 17.5 of those French millimetres, I've also been working on fitting a similar design of true scale tender coupling, in nylon. The full scale tender sits 8 inches behind the Castle (measured between the tender/locomotive steps). I couldn't quite achieve this on the Airfix and still get around 3rd radius curves, but I'm hopeful to get away with 9". Anyway, if it's wrong, I'll blame Ray for not measuring properly ;-)

 

Rick

 

_______

 

      Did the GWR. fit 'Break-away.' chains between the locomotive and its tender?