locotracteur351 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Good afternoon, I am a driver on the Chemin de fer de la baie de Somme in Northern France, and whilst I'm at university not able to be out there playing with real steam locos (and diesels, but they're not as fun!) I usually play around with OO gauge as I have a large collection, but I build models in any gauge/scale combination that takes my fancy and I'm currently leaning towards a dabble in O gauge. I have a motorless Lima 4F that I've started to improve at some point in the past, and a scratch built black five that I detailed, as it was just a basic body shell. I have since restored the chassis of the black five, but it could do with a lot of work to bring it up to scratch so I am happy! I was reading hartleymartin's thread about his card Y6 kit, and saw NeilHB's comment about cheap loco wheels. The cost of wheels was putting me off any chassis scratch building, but having seen this now, I am rather tempted indeed! Looking at their choice of loco wheels (http://www.modelrailwayparts.com/wheels_0g-steel-loco.html) restricts what can be done in the steam department due to size and lack of spokes, but seeing as how close 3'1'' is to 3' (21.53mm as against 21.00mm) I think with etched overlays and a few holes drilled in the wheels, a L&Y pug (or class 21 if you prefer) becomes feasable! The price of a worm and wheel gear set from ultrascale does not bust the bank, and a good quality slow running motor with maybe a flywheel is then all I need to get a small, reasonably priced, slow running shunter for whatever I want to do in the future. Let me know what you think, its only an initial idea at the moment! Thank you in advance, Jagger Gledhill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 There was an excellent article on improving the Lima 4F years ago in the Gauge O Guild Gazette. As I recall it involved replacing the main section of the boiler with a length of drainpipe! With regards to the Y6 Tram, if I have to do a substantial scratch-build to make one, I'll probably make the body in scale timber. I made a brake van this way late last year, and thoroughly enjoyed it. The advantage of this prototype is that you can use standard wagon wheels with a chain between them instead of making up side rods for them. In fact, if you can weight up the tram itself enough it will probably run well on single-axle drive, as a Y6 is unlikely to shuffle more than a few trucks at at time. I am firm believer in making excellent running gear. I am quite happy to pay good money for Slaters wheels, mashima motors and quality gears. No matter how beautifully detailed a model locomotive might be, it is no good to me as a static model. I know others have had great success purchasing old Hornby/Triang wheels off ebay and cutting out every second spoke. 25mm is near enough to 3'6-1/2" wheels which were fairly common on shunters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I know the Slaters wheels are quite dear at around £20 per axle, but I do tend to the view that building on anything other than firm foundations is likely to be disappointing. I'm sure that modified 00 is possible, but likely to be troublesome, in which case, perhaps a false economy. Depends if you have more time than money! Ebay? GOG sales/wants? RMWeb sales/wants? I'm sure if you search, you'll find some secondhand, unwanted or whatever. I rode on the Baie de Somme some years back. Loved it! Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
switcher 1 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Don't forget Ixion do some nice little locos (RTR) at a sensible price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamsRadial Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Another option to consider is to turn the tyre and tread portion of the wheel from a steel ring after fitting a 3D-printed insert comprising spokes, balance-weights, crankpin web and centre made in ABS, or a cast-resin centre. I think the point here is how much time your locomotive is going to spend running around compared to how being photographed. Photos give people a chance to make eye-measurements of the number of spokes, section, etc, whereas a running locomotive doesn't let the rivet counters have a chance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thanks for all your responses! I don't really want to go down the route of modifying OO gauge items, as I have seen elsewhere it leads to other issues! I have looked at ixion models, and the tower models starter steam loco (14 inch industrial) but as I am a student on limited budget and have a 1969 Triumph Herald to get into a roadworthy condition, I'm not really in a position to spend over £200 at the moment! I'd be willing to put maybe £30 into it, hence choosing a small locomotive that could use the wheels in my first post. I do have machinery such as lathe, milling machine, pillar drill etc, so I can make a pair of identical frames and stretchers etc. I would like to have a chance of a proper chassis scratch build, the upperworks (to steal a term from my other hobby, pipe organs) will be in plasticard as this is a medium that I am happy with but want to experiment further. Interesting ideas AdamsRadial, certainly ideas that I will consider! Also something you have mentioned, I don't know what it will do, most of the time it will live in a box, or on a shelf with my black five. I do have a few bits of plain track and a curved three way point and single slip, but a layout certainly isn't on the cards at this point in time. Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 A 1969 Triumph Herald? You're a brave soul! Good luck and a fair wind in your sails!!! (Not just with the rust monster, perhaps also with the eventual carte grise) Kind regards Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thanks for all your responses! I don't really want to go down the route of modifying OO gauge items, as I have seen elsewhere it leads to other issues! I have looked at ixion models, and the tower models starter steam loco (14 inch industrial) but as I am a student on limited budget and have a 1969 Triumph Herald to get into a roadworthy condition, I'm not really in a position to spend over £200 at the moment! I'd be willing to put maybe £30 into it, hence choosing a small locomotive that could use the wheels in my first post. I do have machinery such as lathe, milling machine, pillar drill etc, so I can make a pair of identical frames and stretchers etc. I would like to have a chance of a proper chassis scratch build, the upperworks (to steal a term from my other hobby, pipe organs) will be in plasticard as this is a medium that I am happy with but want to experiment further. Interesting ideas AdamsRadial, certainly ideas that I will consider! Also something you have mentioned, I don't know what it will do, most of the time it will live in a box, or on a shelf with my black five. I do have a few bits of plain track and a curved three way point and single slip, but a layout certainly isn't on the cards at this point in time. Jagger I'm in a similar situation, being a long term student (full time, part time, working, part time, etc) I was fortunate to be able to acquire many items while I was working, and put them aside in a "parts/kits stockpile" When the recession hit several years ago I found myself long-term unemployed, which was a good time to go back to full time study. Now that things have improved, I'm part time working and part time studying. I bought the Ixion Hudswell Clarke and prompty pulled it apart and have spent several months making various improvements, largely cosmetic, which has occupied my time quite well. I rather like the Tamiya TS43 "Racing Green" which it now appears. I also bought the Ixion H Class Manning Wardle, this time whilst a student! It came up at a local hobby shop in the second-hand cabinet (it spent all of 20 minutes there), I put down the deposit and spent a number of months paying it off on layby (I think you call it "lay-away" in the UK) I put in $50 here and there when I had work, and eventually paid it off. Of course, whilst I have been a student, I also have taken a lot to scratch-building. My timber brake van was made largely from about $30 worth of strip wood (of which I still have about half left over), a pair of wheels and various odds and ends that I had in the spares/scraps box. The most expensive part of the job was when I had to go out and spend $17 on a can of spray primer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted February 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2015 My Steam railcar was built in the days before Slaters made a small wheel so the driving wheels are wagon wheels with a brass piece soldered onto the boss to provide the crank. It worked well for 20 years until the valve gear wore loose and locked up fetching the brass piece off. I managed to resolder it on without any problems but my friend Steve who is a very skilled modeller decided fit bushes to all the valve gear to stop it happening again. Even so 20 years good service is not bad. Obviously the wagon wheels are not plastic centrered Roxey do some steel wheels the crank piece needs a centre hole to clear the insulation bush and not make contact with the axle. The axle ends can be cut off for inside frames. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamsRadial Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you have a lathe and a mill, then you are in a position to make your own wheels. Using a rotary table standing on the mill table with a lathe chuck clamped to it, and a slitting saw in the mill, you could machine out the spoke-gaps from a long piece of ABS rod (*) held in the chuck, traversed along the slitting saw. Then part it off into thin sections in the lathe, and you're back to the point where I suggested 3D-printed centres fitted into steel outers. But, if you cost your time making them this way, you might well find Slaters wheels are actually very reasonably-priced (*) A caution here about ABS, if you get it too hot it can release Hydrogen Cyanide fumes. Unlikely during turning or milling, but much more likely during laser-cutting) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 That's my kind of modelling Donw, adapting what you can for what you need! All this talk of machining from AdamsRadial is making me think of my other project.....a 1/8th scale metre gauge loco on 5" gauge track, one of the ones I work on in France. I never thought of machining my own wheels! Thanks for the ideas everyone, it really is appreciated! now to learn how to use my lathe etc......Mr Riley (of the main line black fives) did offer to teach me, but Bury is awkward to get to now I'm living in Yorkshire again, we shall see Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you have access to a lathe, but have not had any training, I would definitely recommend a bit of caution. there are a number of good books about lathe-work (MAP publications for example) but it's really something you need someone looking over your shoulder for the first few sessions - it's really quite easy to get into bad habits and hurt yourself horribly... particularly if it is big enough to turn wheels for a 5" gauge loco! I would suggest looking at the local night-school courses or trying to find a local model-engineering club. my 3 1/2" gauge loco has been in a box, part built, for the last 8 years, with no realistic likelihood of doing very much for the next 10 or more... we'll see, one day, one day... best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Having worked on a preserved railway and volunteered with Ian Riley, I have been made well aware of the risks of such machinery! In fact I have already lost the end of my finger to a small diesel locomotive hahaha!! I have had a few offers of being shown how, and my grandpa did his apprenticeship at David Brown's gears "before the war" (quote) so I am in safe hands. I was given the opportunity to have an engineer's workshop, with all sorts of tools, and a half built 3 1/2" gauge loco (an LBSC "Tich" infact) and at the moment it is all packed up in the rather large space under the stairs so nothing will happen on the machining front until I have somewhere to set up! Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've been looking through endless boxes of model stuff (really need a clear out) and I have come across some 25mm diameter, 8 spoke wagon wheels (two axles). Can anybody think of a prototype wagon (and maybe even know of drawings) that would have been around in the 1950s with such wheels? I seem to be incapable of finding anything useful on google today! Should be a good way to start in 7mm scale! Thanks in advance, Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Dug out some old photos of my black five, its a little more complete now, but the chassis needs a good sorting, the bogie is whitemetal I think, its very soft and bendy anyways! I'd like to replace the bogie wheels with something a little finer in the future, but it'll do for now! As can be seen, its a brass and tinplate with my detailing in plastic. I want to make new valve gear for it too, but I was given this as a joke, they said "if you can make it run, you can have it" so there we go, my very own black five! I need a pair of hand rail knobs too, but the basic shell is complete. The main difference between then and now is that the running board and buffer beam at the front of the loco (seen here in plasticard) has been extended to where it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well, the re-building has begun! new front end and cab so far, and re-built boiler roughly arranged, tempted to build the footplate out of plastic too and build the boiler removable for access when the time comes to replace the motor.... Does anyone know if its possible to buy an etched kit for just the valve gear of a black five? Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Jagger Have a word with Bill Connell - he has motion kits, Black 5 is second on the list http://www.premiercomponents.co.uk/motion_parts_lms.html Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Thanks for that Simon, I'll have to save my pennies for a while, but the prospect of milled parts makes me drool!! I now have a slight issue, I would like to take the driving wheels off the loco to detail the frames and put in some washers to remove side-play on the driven (rear) axle. How on earth do you remove old (I guess skaters by the look of it) wheels from their axles? Also, how do I stop the worm and wheel making a grinding noise? I hqve fitted a small motor as a temporary measure and it fits perfectly between the frames and can't move laterally. However, the driven axle is thrown to one side of the frames depending on the direction the motor is turning so I presume it is because the worm is running on the un-worn part of the gear wheel that the drive is so noisy? The running plates have been made from plastic, the boiler has been built into a sub assembly and needs a final layer of filler before boiler bands adding, and a new tender built. The whole thing is fairly heavy as I added a steel plate in what would be the water space, but time will tell. I will also need to invest in some rivet transfers at some point. I will post some photos later on! Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 I actually have a pair of motors that are identical, so I was wondering if there is anything fundamentally wrong with having two motors driving one worm wheel? the set up is shown in the photos, I presume they will run at half speed if they are wired properly? (civil engineers don't get taught electronics, and I haven't had a physics lesson in years!) I hope you enjoy the photos of progress so far, there doesn't seem to be a lot of plasticard in the O gauge loco world, so I might be doing it wrong, but I don't have the time or money to be soldering just yet, and I'm happy working with plastic! And last but not least, proof of the vintage of this scratch build re-build, the builders date inside the firebox, 29/7/65, that's even older than my Herald!! I appreciate your comments and help! Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Jagger, there's nowt wrong with plassticard! But, you will never get reasonable, quiet & smooth running chassis with any appreciable sideplay between the worm & driven gear, so you need to fix that. You could put a horseshoe-shaped spacer either side of the frames behind the wheels, which might well work well enough, otherwise you need to get one of the wheels off to put washers in. If they are Slaters or Walsall wheels, they will have an 8BA countersunk screw holding them on to a square ended axle. Soaking in penetrating oil for a very long time (Several days) might be very helpful. The screw has a hexagonal socket in the end - these are prone to rounding when being removed, and this is a pain. Ensure you use a new Allen key, and if you are not sure, polish the end of it on emery cloth stuck to a piece of flat wood to get sharp corners on it - try to clean the hoie in the screw out with a pin, wash it wih more oil, and push the Allen key right in very firmly. And keep your fingers crossed. If they are Walsall wheels, you can get them hot which will certainly help, this is not a good plan with Slaters! If you are not lucky, try the other side. If you are still not lucky, I have managed to extract one of these screws by using a fairly worn (thus small diameter) flat grinding disc in a Dremel to grind a screwdriver slot in the screw. You can buy spare screws, you want to protect the wheel which is the expensive bit. The axle is also available as a spare. If that doesn't work, or doesn't appeal, you can try to drill out the screw - I would recommend a drill press to ensure you are parallel to the axle and centred accurately. Try to drill into the core of the screw, the head will come off, and you might be lucky in getting the end of the screw out of the axle. Having got the screw out, you now have the challenge of getting the wheel off the axle - might be easy, but might not. If you have to resort to a puller, you need to support the wheel from behind - a piece of metal as thick as you can manage, with a slot in it to clear the axle, slipped behind the wheel, will protect the wheel itself. And finally, to your double motor - it could work, but why bother? One motor will be enough, and very much easier to align. Assuming you can pick up enough current, they will provide twice the torque, and run at a lower speed if wired in series (but not half speed), and would run at the same speed with twice the torque if wired in parallel. Presuming you don't want to pull the back off your tender, the extra torque is unlikely to be helpful! good luck! Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locotracteur351 Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 That's for your very comprehensive reply Simon, I really do appreciate your help!! I feared that the worm and wheel arrangement is just inherently noisy, though I should have known that as I drive full size locomotives driven that way! I will experiment will your horse shoe shaped spacer idea, seems like a good way forward without too much hassle. If the worst comes to the worst then I will consider removing the wheels and putting in a proper motor and gearbox, but we shall see if it comes to that. I have had enough bad experience pulling pulleys off alternators so i want to avoid all that farce! Thanks for the electrickery help too, really not my forte! I will have to see if the motor has enough torque to pull a decent length train (planning a serious length of 16 tonners for it in the future) but that requires a means of testing it, and my timetable means that I simply can't go to my local club in Halifax. Perhaps two motors and some sort of resistor to provide a powerful but slow locomotive, however, as you say, I don't want to pull my tender in pieces and I'm considering a metal connection between loco and tender and perhaps a soldered tie piece between the tender connection and buffer beam (this is the tinplate one from the original tender). Once again, thanks for your advice, Jagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 The two motors wired in parallel will give you twice the torque (for twice the current draw.) This could be a good option if you are planning on hauling some seriously heavy loads. Another option is to go for a higher gear ratio. This will limit the top end speed, but will give you more power on the driving wheels. You may end up with some wheel slip, in which case you will want to add some lead weight over the driving wheels and make sure that the bearings on your coaches are very well lubricated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Hi Jagger You don't want a resistor of any sort in the feed to the motor, all it will do is reduce the performance (speed and torque) of your loco, and get hot doing it! It would have to be quite big (say 10 or 20 Watt) too. The wheel spacers need to locate the worm wheel (that's the gear on the axle) very accurately from side to side, as the wheel and the worm itself must match closely in the meshing zone. Similarly, the worm must be concentric on the motor shaft, with no appreciable side play. It might require a bit of fiddling to get the alignment right, but assuming the gears are not damaged, should be able to give a good mesh. Once it is meshing as well as you can manage, some grease will help. Only a little bit, not a spoonful! You will find that trying to align two motors to one axle will be very difficult. It can be done, but I really wouldn't even try, unless you are able to use some kind of flexible drive from one of them to accommodate the inevitable tolerances. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 You might be able to get a small universal shaft joint which will take care of any misallignments with the two motors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Steph Dale sells them. It's still more work and hassle than it's worth. Motors (if you are not too picky) are really quite cheap. As Jagger has to make a mounting for the motor anyway, there is no need to buy one specially "designed" to fit with a gearbox (it's the other way round!) so he can use the one he has, or a bigger one - I would not even consider trying to fit two motors. br Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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